The Changing Face Of Catholicism

I agree that as we grow in faith our understanding about many things will change, or at least be viewed somewhat differently.

Your answer is probably correct as to why they are seen as more credible, but in my mind that assumption creates a paradox.

 

DHK, I don't think that is what was said. First, it wasn't the pope, it was the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Second, there was no reference to a "fatal flaw", only to the separated communities being defective. Third, there was no reference to the Roman Catolic Church being the only pathway to salvation. In fact, it says just the opposite. Here is the controversial paragraph:

You can read the whole document here:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...ith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

 

Also note that you misunderstand the catholic view of purgatory. It is not a place where you pay for your sins but are renewed to be more christlike. So in essense when we die we've for lack of a better term are brainwashed into sin through a lifetime of it. Not forgiven for sin that has occured but we still struggle with sin. It becomes a place therefore that we are renewed to have the mind of christ free as well as a perfected body. This is closer to the actual doctine then paying for sins.

I don't know of any scriptural supports for this outside of the apocryphal texts.

 

I see Zenas already provided you with the document here DHK, but this is a perfect example of making something the Catholic church has said into something you want it to say, not what it actually says.

Did the church affirm it claim to be the church established by Christ? Yep. Did it say it considers churches outside the church to suffer from certain defects? Yep? Seems from your post to be rather a mutual thing, don't you think?

Yet the article quite clearly affirms that "the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them." and "It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church.

So could you please point out in the document where you find evidence for your claim that the church has said that only those in the Catholic church can be saved?

 

Regarding Purgatory, the church teaches that the blood of Jesus completely removed the eternal penalty of sin -- spiritual death.

I guess I'm still not sure what part of "because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son" you guys do not understand or accept? The idea that because the eternal consequences of sin are gone means that there is no longer punishment for sin is not scriptural.

Luke 12:47-48
47*"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48*But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.


1 Thessalonians 4:1-8
1*Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2*For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3*It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4*that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5*not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6*and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8*Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.


Hebrews 12:4-11
4*In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5*And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." 7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9*Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10*Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit works within us to completely sanctify us -- this is the ultimate result of salvation. Not that God through eternity sees us through "Jesus colored glasses" that hides our imperfection from Him. That the power of the Holy Spirit does indeed complete His work and we truly become "righteous men made perfect". I can give you about 15 scriptures that support the belief that we are indeed to be purified by the working of the Holy Spirit. Do you disagree with that concept?

Since few of us are 'perfect' at the time we die, how is this work that is begun within us here then completed? This is what the doctrine of Purgatory addresses. Not a 'second chance'. At the moment of death a person is judged for heaven or hell. Those whom Jesus lives within and the Holy Spirit is present working -- heaven. Yet for those who are to enter heaven but are not yet perfect -- how to you propose this occurs? Does you believe it does not occur -- that we are allowed to enter heaven with imperfections? Do you believe we are never really made perfect, but eternally sit under the cover of Christ? Do you believe God simply 'snaps his fingers' and it's done?

Catholics would say that the Holy Spirit completes his work of sanctification in us. As John Paul II said regarding Purgatory, "Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection."

 

I heard the same media reports and you are correct about what they said. I found them rather shocking so I went to the source and found that the media reports being put out by both the secular press and the Baptist press were very wrong.

 

Then you need to please provide where the document says that, because paraphrasing or not, there is no context wherein it says what you have stated that I can find.

We are not discussing at this point whether or not this claim is true. Obviously you believe it's not -- perfectly fine with me. A totally different discussion though if you would like to move that direction. At this point we are discussing whether or not the Catholic church teaches that one must be Catholic to be saved.

Provide the quote from the catechism that says this please. What I read says this:

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."

For this reason, we do not rebaptize those Christians who are entering into full communion with the church.

What part of “are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation” isn’t clear?

Not being "in communion with" in the Catholic view is not the same thing as not being "born again".

The Holy Spirit knows His own and that knowledge is not our privilege.

The oft-quoted phrase “There is no salvation outside the Catholic church” exists from at least the 3rd century. Please keep in mind that there were not other Christian churches at the time. This was an affirmation that Christ is indeed the way to salvation.

The church holds yet today that those who have rejected it with an understanding that they are rejecting the church which Christ founded are indeed anathema and outside it walls and those of salvation. The church also holds that those Christians who are outside of its visible boundaries for whatever other reason are still indeed within its boundaries, although not in perfect communion.

For this reason, unless one has a knowledge and understanding that the Catholic church is indeed the church founded by Christ and has nonetheless chosen to reject and leave it – they may indeed be saved without being within the visible walls of the church.

There are certainly those who disagree that the Catholic church is not what she claims to be, and certainly a topic worthy of discussion.

But holding to a position that ‘the Catholic church says only Catholics are saved’ when this is not in fact what the church teaches at all can only be from a position of ignorance, deliberate deception, or blinding hatred. Ultimately when people do the research for themselves instead of just blindly accepting another’s word, they discover this truth and it ultimately serves only to weaken the position of those who are intent upon standing with it.

 

what did his holiness tell you? (JK) what did the Pope actually say?

 

I'm not completely sure. The phone connection was bad and so was his English. :laugh:

 

And multitudes lost their lives at the hands of the Inquisitors of the Church of Rome for obeying their conscience.

It would be one thing if they had taken a human life but these martyrs lost their lives because they chose to worship God in the "sanctuary" of their conscience.

HankD

 

Yes, the Inquisitions. The standard proof of the evils of the church of Rome.

We are all aware that heresy was considered a crime against the state not the church, correct? The state charged people, tried people, executed people. For a somewhat different perspective of the role of the church, please review

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp

No martyrs ever lost their lives at the hands of Protestants for their views? Michael Servetus comes to mind.

Also, please let's not forget Protestant persecutions of Anabaptists for the crime of heresy in believing in a "Believer's baptism", the massive witch-hunts resulting in thousands of deaths in Europe especially in heavily controlled Protestant areas such as Germany, Luther's support of the use of violence by the ruling class against peasants, torture and execution that occurred under Calvin, the oppressive laws against Catholics in Protestant England and the roots of slavery in the origins of the Southern Baptists.

Are the numbers greater in the Catholic church? Most certainly. The history of the Catholic church is quite frankly longer for one thing, and as a result is more deeply ingrained with the state throughout history. Is this history exclusively Catholic and not shared with Protestants? Not by a long shot.

There are two things for us all to learn from these events. The first is that the church being separate from the state is of primary importance for the integrity of the church.

The second is that the enemy attacks from both outside and within, and will until the day the Lord comes in glory. How delighted he is when he is able to enlist us in his battle within.

 

Indeed. As well it should be. Not only the Inquisitions but scores of other atrocities over the centuries and the blood of perhaps millions.

Yes it is true. But by what right did the Church and State wed and make that unholy alliance called the Holy Roman Empire which infected even the reformation churches that it spawned. Why deflect the blame by pointing the finger at others? The Church of Rome is guilty of massive bloodshed of the innocent.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.​

Like I asked previously who spawned these "separated brethren"?

The Church of Rome is the root of almost all religious persecution of the face of the earth.

Yes and many of his (the enemy) are the tares he sowed in the kingdom and are now cloaked in clergy robes.

2 Corinthians

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.​

The works of the Church of Rome and its children are evident.

All who give allegiance to it (even as "protestants") will share in her condemnation of the bloodshed of the innocent. Yes, it will be in the measure of their knowledge or ignorance thereof.

Look, if you are my brother in Christ, take my advice my brother...

2 Corinthians 6

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.​

Before you ask, I am not a protestant.
Yes, I am a member of a local Baptist Church.

As far as I know my local church as a church has never shed the blood of anyone because they disagreed with our doctrinal view and manner of worship.

It is not so with the Church of Rome which at one time was a Church blessed by God. Every Roman Catholic Church is currently an extension of the Church of Rome and will share either her condemnation or reward depending on God's judgement as to her worthiness.

HankD

 

What historical documents support your view that the Roman Catholic Church did not exist until Constantine. It's nonsense Ignatius refers to the Catholic Church as does Ireneaus. Being a baptist I'm conserned that some believe we came from such heresies as the Cathari, and the Albigenses. I believe that baptist have multiple beginings from groups like the puritans etc... We are a modern phenomina. All the ancient writings come from groups like the Catholics, Orthodox, and Copts. Writings other than these seem pretty sure to have come from other sects like the gnostics. Baptist churches (the multitudes of them from independent to free will to SBC) are a modern phenominon in Christianity. I don't see the historical evidence to prove your point. Just don't.

 

Yeah and Oliver Cromwell didn't kill a bunch of Catholics in England and Ireland unjustly! Sure. Elizabeth the I didn't kill any Catholics either. King Henry VIII didn't confiscate land from the Catholics! Yeah. Protestant Americans didn't butcher a bunch of american natives either! Yeah sell me some more snake oil. Unfortunately, every one is guilty of atrocities. Except the early anabaptist (again baptizers) Jacob Amans or Simon Menno and their followers.

 

DHK, please read again the quote you provided from Vatican II

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ, would refuse to enter her or to remain in her could not be saved.

If a person "knows" that the Catholic church is the true church and refuses to enter it, they cannot be saved.

It is speaking about those who have been convicted by the Holy Spirit that the church is the true church and choose to ignore that conviction.

It is not speaking about people who do not "know" this truth. It is speaking as it says "to the Catholic faithful".

Which is why they very next paragraph in this very authoritative Vatican II document says this:

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.


So why take things out of context and twist the words, ignore and fail to present other things in the same document that obviously contradict what you're saying, and try to present this as "truth"? For what purpose please?