The Church Not a Mystery

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Aug 4, 2012.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    It is a bedrock doctrine of Classic Dispensationalism 1. that the Church was not revealed in prophecy at all and 2. that the inclusion of Gentile believers with Jewish believers in the Church was first revealed to the Apostle Paul. I believe that Scripture, properly understood, shows this to be false doctrine. Furthermore, the insistence of classic dispensationalism on the truth of those doctrines has unnecessarily splintered the Church and caused much ill will among the Saints as is routinely shown on this Forum. Thankfully, as I understand it, progressive dispensational doctrine has reexamined those beliefs and come to different conclusions.

    Consider the following:

    Jesus Christ has raised His friend Lazarus from the dead. Scripture continues with the story.

    John 11:45-52.
    45. Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
    46. But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
    47. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
    48. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
    49. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
    50. Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
    51. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
    52. And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


    The high priest were rightly concerned that because Jesus Christ had raised Lazarus all men will believe on him and the Romans won’t like it. Their solution: Jesus Christ must die! Then look very carefully what Scripture tells us: Caiaphas, being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Jesus Christ is to die, not for the Jews only, but to gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Who are the Children of God scattered abroad. They are those chosen by God before the foundation of the world unto Salvation in Jesus Christ, Jew and Gentile. And Please Note: They are to be gathered together in one body, contrary to the insistence of some that this revelation was for the ear of the Apostle Paul only!

    It is worth noting at this point that the name “Children of God” does not appear in the Old Testament, period.

    ****************************************************************
    Now consider the following Scripture, again from the Gospel of John. [From Chapter 9 we learn that Jesus Christ has healed a blind man on the Sabbath and is, therefore confronted by the Pharisees.]

    John 10:11-16
    10. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
    12. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
    13. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
    14. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
    15. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    16. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


    Note in particular Verse 16: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Now who are the other sheep? Obviously some have and will deny that the reference is to Gentiles. However, as shown from the Scripture John 11:52 God has other Children scattered abroad. Those Children, those sheep, can only be Gentiles!

    *****************************************************************

    But folks this is not new. In the Old Testament we see on occasion that God calls other than those of Israel to Himself: Job, Rahab, Ruth, Nineveh. But it doesn’t stop there.

    The classic dispensationalist insists that there is no prophecy related to the Church in the Old Testament, and particularly no prophecy of Jew and Gentile being gathered together in one body. But consider a passage from the Prophet Hosea:

    Hosea 2:23. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

    Now it is entirely possible that one reading the Old Testament would not necessarily understand this Revelation given to Hosea. But folks we have the New Testament. Consider what the Apostle Paul says about the Revelation given to Hosea:

    Romans 9:25, 26
    25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.


    God tells us through the Apostle Paul, what was prophesied by Hosea, what was confirmed by the Apostle John. The Church, including both Jew and Gentile, was no Mystery in Old Testament prophecy and it was no Mystery to the Apostles.

    *****************************************************************

    Now consider Scripture from the Book of Amos.

    Amos 9:11. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

    When is that day? Is it yet to come? Not at all. Simply hear what the James the Brother of our Lord Jesus Christ tells us after Peters account of the conversion of the Gentile Cornelius.

    Acts 15:3-18
    13. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
    14. Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16. After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

    18. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


    We see that James applies the Prophecy of Amos to the conversion of the Gentile Cornelius. Therefore, it is false to say that there was no prophecy related to the calling of the Gentiles into the Church.

    *****************************************************************

    Scripture shows that the classic dispensational doctrine:

    1. That the Church was not revealed in prophecy at all. and

    2. That the inclusion of Gentile believers with Jewish believers in the Church was first revealed to the Apostle Paul.

    is false doctrine.
     
  2. Tom Butler

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    I admit that my study of Dispensationalism is limited, so I ask,

    Was the establishment of the church by Jesus during his earthly ministry Plan B?
     
  3. MorseOp

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    No. God has always had one called out people spanning from creation to the beginning of the eternal state. God was calling a people to Himself prior to the Israel (i.e. Adam & Noah). The nation of Israel was supposed to be a beacon to the Gentiles. Israel failed at this which is one of the reasons God sent Jonah to Nineveh, to show Israel its disobedience to His command. God predominantly called people to Himself from among the children of Israel, but He also called people from among the Gentile nations (i.e. Ruth and Rahab).

    Enter the New Covenant and the so-called church age. God still calls people the same way, but now they are called to be part of a spiritual household. This household is the church. It is made up of saints, living and dead, throughout all ages. This was always God's plan, not a fall back or plan B.
     
  4. mandym

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    Game over.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    As I argued in my thread, The Parenthesis Church, Classic Dispensationalists claim that Jesus Christ came to establish the Messianic Kingdom, that He was rejected by the Jews and established the Church instead. Classic dispensationalists assert that the Church is a "parenthesis, an "intercalation", an "interruption" in God's plan for Israel. I claim that the concept of a parenthesis Church is heretical.

    Jesus Christ in John 17 declares that He finished the work that He came to do. If He came to establish the Messianic Kingdom and did not then He could not claim He had finished His work. This is the obvious error in classic dispensational doctrine. God chose Israel for one primary reason, to be a vehicle through which He would bring Jesus Christ into the world.

    Furthermore, and this is something I have never said before, for anyone to claim that the Church for which Jesus Christ died is a "parenthesis", an "interruption" in God's plan for Israel is a despicable doctrine. Jesus Christ did not die so that the Jews could reestablish blood sacrifice in a Jewish millennium. He died for the elect of all time which constitute His Church, His chaste virgin [2 Corinthians 11:2], the New Jerusalem. These people apparently need to spend some time in the Book of Hebrews.

    And He is coming again, not to establish a Jewish millennium, but to raise the dead, to execute judgment, to cast Satan and his into the lake of fire, and to dwell eternally with His Bride, the New Jerusalem, in the New Heavens and New Earth!
     
  6. mandym

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    Again game over
     
  7. OldRegular

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    You should not rely on a paraphrase of Scripture!
     
  8. mandym

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    The ESV is not a paraphrase
     
  9. mandym

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    It is no more plan B than was Christs death on the cross because of the fall of Adam.
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    The mystery is they come in on equal footing
     
  11. mandym

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    OK OR said:

    Game over
     
  12. OldRegular

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    Well said!:thumbs::thumbs:
     
  13. OldRegular

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    The Gospel of John is obviously too much for you!
     
  14. mandym

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    May the Lord soften your heart with peace and kindness and a true understanding of the church.
     
  15. OldRegular

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    Then they have added the word "mystery" it is not in the YLT or the GLT.
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    They say the church is a mystery,and they are only a heavenly,spiritual people.
     
  17. mandym

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    The word mystery is not the only thing that gives your opinion a problem. You need to look at Ephesians 1:26; 3:5.
     
  18. OldRegular

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    And may the Lord open your eyes that you might understand His Word; and quit shouting "game over". Just in case you do not understand this is not a game!.
     
  19. OldRegular

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    You need to read the OP and rebut those Scripture not repeating a mantra!
     
  20. mandym

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    I am not repeating a mantra (which everyone can see) I am refuting your claim by presenting other scripture that brings your personal interpretation of those passages in the op in question.

    The word "mystery" while a legitimate translation is not the only part of scripture that causes problems for your op. Paul made it clear that the inclusion of the Gentiles was not previously known until his generation:

    I know it is convenient for you to focus on the word "mystery". But the word mystery is supported by other statements of Paul.

    So I have correctly refuted your interpretation of the passages you used in the op with other scripture that leaves no doubt that you are wrong.
     
    #20 mandym, Aug 5, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2012

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