The church of Christ refuted again (the gift of the Holy Spirit)

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Olivencia, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. Olivencia

    Olivencia
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to Acts 10:45 the Gentiles received "the gift of the Holy Spirit" before they were water baptized (Acts 10:48). Several Greek lexicons make it clear that if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit (the Holy Spirit Himself) such a person is saved.
    a. Brown: For Paul it was precisely the gift of the Spirit which distinguished the Christian from the Jew, the new age from the old (Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6-8; Gal. 4:29; Phil. 3:3) (NIDNTT 3:701, Spirit).
    b. Kittel: The very same gift of the greatest thing man can receive, the gift of the Holy Spirit, accomplishes and bears witness to the equality of the recipients before God, and establishes the unity of the church (TDNT 3:349, isos).
    c. Mounce: Christian hope is strengthened by the Scriptures (Rom. 15:4), by the work of Jesus (1 Pet. 1:3, 21), and by God's present gift of the Spirit to believers (Rom. 5:5) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, hope, page 341).
    d. Thayer: respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, sphragizw, page 609).
    e. Vine: In the metaphor of the sealing of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing...(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, seal, page 1003).

    Many from the church of Christ that I have dealt with will insist that "the gift of the Holy Spirit" is not the same gift of the Holy Spirit as used in Acts 2:38. This is a desperate and pitiful attempt to avoid the obvious.
    Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:45 - The gift of the Holy Spirit
    1. The same Greek phrase
    2. By the same author
    3. In the same book
    4. In the same context (the preaching of the Lordship and resurrection of Christ)


    Notice that none of the Greek lexicons listed below make any distinction.

    a. Danker: receive the Spirit as a gift Ac. 2:38; cp. 10:45 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, dwrea, page 266).
    b. The usage of dwrea in the NT is concentrated on the gracious gift which has already been given by God, namely, Christ (John 4:10), the Spirit (Acts 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17), or "righteousness" (Rom. 5:15, 17) (EDNT 1:364, dwrea).
    c. Kittel: In Ac. the Spirit is called the dwrea of God in 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17 (TDNT 2:167, dwron).
    d. Thayer: with an epexegetical gen. of the thing given, the Holy Ghost, Ac 2:38, 10:45 (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, dwrea, page 161).
    e. Vine: In Acts 2:38 'the gift of the Holy Ghost', the clause is epexegetical, the gift being the Holy Ghost Himself; cf. 10:45; 11:17 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, gift, page 477).

    For those who insist that the Gentiles were still unsaved until they were water baptized I would like to see a citation of any Greek lexicon (not your own opinion or a commentary) that states one can possess the gift of the Holy Spirit and still be lost.

    Thank you

    Olivencia
     
  2. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    0

    Any man can fall from God of his own will.
     
  3. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    JM17 or any other COC has failed to answer or completely ignored this post:

    http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1396901&postcount=38

    Paul does not include baptism in the gospel.
    He speaks of baptism entirely apart of the gospel.
    According to Gal.1, those who differ with Paul's gospel are accursed.
    One ought to be very careful of the gospel they preach.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    So man, mighty man is greater than GOD? You have been reduced to making pathetic excuses for your doctrinal error.
     
  5. JSM17

    JSM17
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Olivencia believes that the Jews on Pentecost (Acts 2:38) had their sins forgiven when they were water baptized. He also believes that Paul washed away his sin in baptism in Acts 22:16. He boasts of refuting the church of Christ, yet he will tell you that Cornelius and all other Gentiles were saved in a different manner than those in Acts 2:38 and then Paul in Acts 22:16.


    If Cornelius was saved before he was baptized, he was saved before he had faith. Peter began preaching the message of salvation in verse 34 ending in verse 43. The text tells us that while he spoke those words the Holy Spirit fell upon them. The text of Acts 10 does not tell at what point the Holy Spirit fell upon them but only "while Peter was still speaking these words." However, in Acts 11 where "Peter explained...in order from the beginning" what had happened in Acts 10, we read how he was told by Cornelius that an angel had instructed him to send for Peter "who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved" (Acts 11:14). Let us pause to digest this. Cornelius was to hear "words by which you and all your household will be saved." Then Peter said, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning" (verse 15). So the Holy Spirit fell upon them "as I began to speak" says Peter. So Cornelius had not heard the words of salvation at the point when the Holy Spirit fell upon him and his household.

    Someone may ask, "Why was the gift of the Holy Spirit poured out on the Gentiles before conversion?"

    Answer: To persuade the Jews that the Gentiles should receive the same salvation as the Jews received. Those Jews who did not believe that Gentiles could receive the gospel had to be convinced by miracle that Gentiles could be saved through Jesus Christ the same as the Jews who obeyed the gospel.

    Peter commanded these Gentiles "to be baptized in the name of the Lord." And we must bear in mind that baptism "in the name of the Lord" is "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38).
     
  6. Olivencia

    Olivencia
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have corresponded with many from the church of Christ and his post is a typical example of how the church of Christ evades the subject at hand.

    Take a good look at JM17's post. Did he cite one Greek lexicon that states if one has the gift of the Holy Spirit they are still lost? No. Let's see. I cited 5 that do.
    Five to zero.

    In terms of JM17's so called proof in his citation of Acts 11:4 and Acts 11:15 I have already dealt with this elsewhere in this same section of the forum - Refuting the arguments used by the church of Christ about the Gentiles (Acts 10).
    Here it is again...

    Church of Christ assertion: According to Acts 11:15 Peter states that the Holy Spirit fell "as I began to speak". This was a more "orderly" account (Acts 11:4) of what took place in Acts 10. If the the reception of the Holy Spirit proves that these Gentiles were saved then it also proves they were saved without faith which is impossible (Romans 10:17). The Holy Spirit falling on them was to simply let Peter and those with him know that these Gentiles were now ready to be saved not that they were already saved.

    Response - Concerning the "orderly" account of events Luke also uses this word (kathexes) in Luke 1:3 and it does not have to mean a strict chronological order of events for we read in Luke 3:19, 20:
    a. John is preaching.
    b. Herod is reproved by John.
    c. John is thrown in prison.
    d. Then Luke records the baptism of the Lord Jesus.
    Obviously these events are not in strict chronological order.

    In terms of arxomai (began) in Acts 11:15 once again we see that a word can have a more flexible meaning than the church of Christ will allow. Notice what the following Greek lexicons and dictionaries say about arxomai.
    a. Abbot-Smith: (a) absol.,...(b) relatively -> included is Acts 11:15 (A Manuel Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, arxe, page 62).
    b. Brown: It is often almost superfluous, and can be omitted in the Eng. translation without affecting the meaning (e.g. Matt. 4:17; 11:7, 20; 26:22; Mk. 6:7; Lk. 3:8; 15:14; Jn. 13:5; Acts 1:1; 11:4, 15) (NIDNTT 1:167, Beginning).
    c. International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: Often used also, not for the absolute beginning, but, relatively, for the starting-point of some important movement (1 John 2:7, 24; Acts 11:15; Philippians 4:15, Begin).

    The "Sunday punch" though is found in Acts 15 where Peter once again recounts the events that took place in Acts 10. In Acts 15:8 Peter states that these Gentiles were given the Holy Spirit but before they were given the Holy Spirit they heard the word of the gospel and believed (Acts 15:7).
     
  7. JSM17

    JSM17
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Notice how Olivencia will not respond as well to the comment:

     
  8. Olivencia

    Olivencia
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    0
    For those who insist that the Gentiles were still unsaved until they were water baptized I would like to see a citation of any Greek lexicon (not your own opinion or a commentary) that states one can possess the gift of the Holy Spirit and still be lost.


    This was the last sentence of the thread that I started. If you want to discuss another topic then start another thread. But in typical church of Christ fashion when their theology is shown to be in errror evasions, smokescreens and obfuscations are all they offer. You tried to escape that these Gentiles were saved before they were water baptized by appealing to Acts 11:4 and Acts 11:15 but when that didn't work you try changing the subject. That may work well within the church of Christ circles but not for the serious Bible student.
     
  9. JSM17

    JSM17
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cornelius was born of water and Spirit just as all men are.

    Cornelius was not a man in a wrong relationship with God, he was a man who obeyed God. He was not a Jew, he was devout man, a righteous man. The Holy Spirit did not fall on a wicked man, but a man that God chose to be the first Gentile convert. I believe that if Cornelius would have died two days before this event he would have been saved. Were all the Gentiles excluded from heaven? Rahab, Abraham. If the Gospel had not come to the Gentiles yet was there any provision for the eternal security? I do believe that the time had come where Cornelius had to obey the Gospel, if he would have not obeyed then he would no longer be a righteous man.

    Acts 10:1-4
    There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment,

    2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

    3 About the Ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!"

    4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.Acts 10:5-8

    Did Cornelius worship God? Did God acknowledge this worship?

    5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.

    6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do."

    7 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually.

    8 So when he had explained all these things to them, he sent them to Joppa.
    NKJV



    Acts 10:22

    22 And they said, "Cornelius the centurion, a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to summon you to his house, and to hear words from you."
    NKJV

    RIGHTEOUS, RIGHTEOUSLY
    dikaios NT:1342 signifies "just," without prejudice or partiality, e. g., of the judgment of God, 2 Thess 1:5,6; of His judgments, Rev 16:7; 19:2; of His character as Judge, 2 Tim 4:8; Rev 16:5; of His ways and doings, Rev 15:3. See further under JUST, A, No. 1, RIGHT, B, No. 1.

    In the following the RV substitutes "righteous" for the KJV "just"; Matt 1:19; 13:49; 27:19,24; Mark 6:20; Luke 2:25; 15:7; 20:20; 23:50; John 5:30; Acts 3:14; 7:52; 10:22; 22:14; Rom 1:17; 7:12; Gal 3:11; Heb 10:38; James 5:6; 1 Peter 3:18; 2 Peter 2:7; 1 John 1:9; Rev 15:3.
    (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)


    The word is used 81 times according to Englishman's Concordance and always refers to one who is right before God.

    The point is the H.S. did not fall on a lost sinner, but a righteous man who obeyed the Gospel and was born of the Holy Spirit and of Water into the Kingdom according to the Gospel and not under the provision that God had made for him up to that point.

    Acts 10:43 does not negate other passages that indicate saving obedience to the Gospel. Believe encompasses repentance, confession, and baptism, all which lead to forgiveness of sins.

    Cornelius was alive before Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and he was alive after, but the Gospel had not come to the Gentiles yet.
     
  10. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Notice how JSM17 avoids answering Post #3 like the plague.
     
  11. Olivencia

    Olivencia
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good point DHK but don't hold your breath. I too am still waiting for his Greek lexicon(s) citations.

    I started a new thread that deals with his latest argument.

    Why does it seem with the church of Christ that we will address their arguments but they ignore ours?????
     
  12. JSM17

    JSM17
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK WROTE:
    I was not avoiding it, I was focusing on other things, it is hard to keep up sometimes, but I will respond to your main point of post #3


    Post #3 by DHK:
    Well Paul did baptize people:

    1 Cor 1:16-17

    16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
    NKJV

    DHK WROTE:
    What is amazing to me is that no one else who read the post called you out on the fact that this statement is completely false according to verse 16.

    The gospel to the Jews in Acts 2 is the same Gospel in Acts 10 both require water and Spirit. Same Gospel, yet I am accused of preaching a different Gospel, when some on this forum believe that the Jews in Acts were saved by a different Gospel then the one in Acts 10.

    You implying that Paul does not believe that baptism is part of the Gospel, this is false, Paul himself was baptized to wash away his sins, even Olivencia believes that.

    Paul preached baptism as part of the gospel just like Philip did when preaching Christ to the Eunich in Acts 8.
     
  13. Olivencia

    Olivencia
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    0
    Still no Greek lexicons that say one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost.
    Please don't give that lame excuse where you had too many other things to respond to because I am just asking for only one Greek lexicon.

    What is the name of the Greek lexicon and on what page is it found?

    Thank you
     
  14. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    The gospel in Acts 2 and 10 is the same gospel, as it is in chapter 10, and in the rest of the Bible. Never does the gospel require water; never. When one states that water is required for baptism they are preaching another gospel, not the gospel of Christ. There is no baptism in 1Cor.15:1-4, where the gospel is clearly delineated.
    If your gospel that you are preaching is a different gospel (and it is), then Paul describes the messenger of the gospel accursed.

    Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
    I imply nothing. I state most assuredly that Paul did not believe baptism was a part of salvation. He says in no uncertain words that the two were very different. He says that: "Christ sent me not to baptize."
    What does that mean to you? It means that baptism is not important to the gospel. It is not necessary to the gospel. Christ sent him to preach the gospel. Christ did not call him to baptize. The two are very different from one another, and Paul, as a rule did not baptize anyone.
    As he says:
    1 Corinthians 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
    --Baptism wasn't important to him. The gospel was. God had called him to preach the gospel; not to baptize. The two are very different. Others were to baptize, not him.
    This is a denial of the Bible for which you have no evidence for. I see that you provided no Scripture and are unable to. Why do you deny Scripture, and so blatantly??
     
  15. JSM17

    JSM17
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Bible does not teach that Holy Spirit activity necessarily indicates personal salvation.
    In fact, the Bible does not even teach that speaking in tongues indicates salvation.
    In Numbers 22:28-30 the Lord enabled a donkey to speak in tongues; was the donkey saved? Clearly this type of reasoning would indicate that the donkey was saved. However, clear thinking individuals will recognize that divine activity does not necessarily indicate salvation.

    Another such example is the high priest Caiaphas in John 11:51. Caiaphas had rejected Jesus and was plotting Jesus' death, yet he prophesied that Jesus would die for the sins of the people. John even says "this he spake not of himself" indicating that the Holy Spirit was involved in the prophesy. Yet who would say that Caiaphas, the one who ordered the murder of Jesus, was saved? Here are two clear examples of Holy Spirit activity where personal salvation is obviously not implied.

    Third, the Bible teaches that speaking in tongues was a sign for the unbeliever ( 1 Corinthians 14:22). The unbelievers in this particular context were the Jews present with Peter. They did not believe that salvation was for the Gentiles. The Holy Spirit had to convince Peter and the other Jews that Cornelius and his house could be saved. Once this was done, Peter asks who can forbid baptism. Why would Peter say these words? He said them because he and the others recognized that salvation comes as a result of baptism (as he preached in Acts 2:38) and they could now touch and baptize these gentiles with God's approval.
     
  16. Olivencia

    Olivencia
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    0
    No Greek lexicon known to man was cited by you in reference to the gift of the Holy Spirit.
     
  17. JSM17

    JSM17
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2008
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    0
    Were the Samaritans in Acts 8 saved when they believed and were baptized?

    According to what you glean from the Lexicons you would have to conclude that these people were still lost because they did not have the H.S.
     
  18. Olivencia

    Olivencia
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    0
    Once again in typical church of Christ fashion we see them refusing to respond to statements and/or questions given to them.
    I am asking for one Greek lexicon (and the page number of it) that states a person can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and still be lost.

    Still waiting......
     
  19. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Philip does not preach baptism as part of the gospel in Acts 8.

    Baptism is not part of the gospel. Isn't 1 Cor 1:17 clear enough for you?

    We need to let Scripture speak.
     

Share This Page

Loading...