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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Joloiet, Apr 10, 2016.
of the new covenant
are we to disobey?
Some say we are under grace now.....so no need to worry about such things....how does that sound?
Just freestyle and do what you feel like....
or obey Jesus:
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Romans 6:1. 'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may increase?
Quite a few folk on this board seem to be saying, "Yes!"
1 John 2:3-11 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
Not sure you did not misspeak? Of course we are to "obey" to be best of our ability all that Christ commanded, Matthew 28:19-20. The catch is I have never met a disciple who knew more than a dozen of Christ's commands. If you do a study in Matthew, you will come up with more than 70 instructions which as a disciple of Christ we are to obey.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God,
and his righteousness; and all these things
shall be added unto you .
What does this mean?
It speaks of when someone is being drawn by God they are being called to be saints and built up a Holy habitation of God in His Kingdom.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
They come to know that as a Holy King and as Lord of the Kingdom, Jesus having saved us from the bondage and reigning power of sin, frees us to serve Him in holiness;
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
just came across this;
So how should we relate to the politics of the world? We should “seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness” (Matt 6:33). This means that we seek his dominion, his reign, his law, his righteousness over all of life. We dedicate our lives, passion, and every material thing we own to his service. As a knight would kneel before his King to pledge his service to the advancement of his crown, so to we must kneel to pledge our undying loyalty and service to our Heavenly King.
You cannot have a kingdom without a king. And when we say King, we mean a real king, not just a king of our imaginations, not just a king of our hearts, or a king of our private belief system, but a king over the entire universe. The title “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” means just that; Jesus Christ is the King over all kings and the Lord over all lords that ever have or will exist. God by his power raised Jesus from the dead and as Ephesians 1 says “…seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.” (v.20-23).
You see the rule of Christ, the dominion of Christ, the Kingdom of Christ cannot be disconnected from the church of Christ. Where on earth do you see the best expression of the Kingdom of God in its physical reality? You see it, in the local church. Christ is head of the church, and there as 1 Peter 2:9 says, is his “Holy Nation.” Despite a church’s errors, faulty leadership or faulty members, Christ’s Kingdom has its visible representation in the church. And, as stated before, this is because were the king is, there is the Kingdom. That is why when Christ came he told the people that the Kingdom of God was among them, because he was among them (Luke 11:20). When the church gathers there, in a special way, is Christ.
Now we acknowledge the current reign of Christ, and yet we can look around and plainly see that not all is as it should be. Hebrew 2:7-9 answers this very dilemma, “You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”
So we see him crowned and nothing is outside his control, yet we don’t currently see everything in subjection to him. The answer the author of Hebrews gives, is that the gospel is at work; for Jesus was “crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”
Thus our pledge means loyalty to Christ’s mission, and he has given the Church a clear mission as the visible representation of the Kingdom of God on earth. This is commonly known as the Great Commission. And how does that commission begin? It does not begin with “go” as many assume, it begins with the authority of Christ, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”(Matt 28:18). This is the authority we as citizen of the heavenly kingdom march forward with. All heaven and earth is God’s, and thus to we seek the spiritual domination of the planet. This is not done by mere political action but can only be carried out by the Gospel. While the Great Commission will never succeed simply by our effort, the Great Commission will succeed ultimately in its intent (whether for mercy or judgment) because Christ has all authority to bring it about, and Christ does not fail.
We then are heralds for a Kingdom not of this world, for the Kingdom of God is inseparable from the Gospel. Multiple times it is described as “The Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt 4:23, Matt 9:35, Matt 24:14, Mark 1:14-15) in which men repent and believe. No other entity on earth has this task. The proclamation of the Gospel is given to the church, and if the church fails to be loyal to Christ in doing so, no hospital, charity, college, institution, non-profit, or any other entity has been tasked with this unique mission from God.
If the most important event that ever happened in human history is the coming of Christ, then the essential and unique mission of the church… is its calling by God to proclaim that gospel in word and sacrament. The gospel of Christ is its treasure; the church is the earthen vessel whose sacred obligation is to proclaim the gospel and to gather a people around that gospel, forming them through the Spirit in the Body of Christ. No other institution has that calling; no other institution will promote the gospel if the church fails in its task. So churches must take with the utmost seriousness the terrible simplicity of their task. Of course they must be engaged in deeds of charity, and they must be concerned with justice. Of course they must involve themselves in many other activities – financial, administrative, and educational. Of course they must witness in the public sphere. But the church is not primarily a political actor, a social transformer, or an aggressive interest group. If it acts primarily as one of these, it is identified and treated as one more contentious worldly group. What’s more, it loses its own integrity, its own reason for being. Currently we are witnessing many churches losing confidence and zeal for their essential and unique calling. They no longer believe their gospel message is of utmost importance. They marginalize it in their own actives and institutions. – Robert Benne.
How do you seek first the Kingdom of God and
and his righteousness in everything?
You choice (Matthew 6:33) is problematic for certain believers who think no one seeks God at any time until "quickened" (via irresistible grace). Thus they claim no one can effectively seek God. They have no answer for Matthew 23:13 where men seeking God were in the process of entering heaven.
But if we turn away from twaddle and accept the verse means what it says, then our task becomes less clouded by the fog of war.
33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. (NASB)
1. What does seek first mean? It means we must continually strive for God's kingdom and strive not to sin. We are Christ's servants.
2. All these things refers to food, drink clothes etc, the needs to daily living. Jesus says these will be provided to you. It is possible our efforts to serve Christ as an effective witness includes taking care of ourselves and our loved ones.
If we back up and look at the contextual picture, this is the command Christ is presenting:
The NT is not a new set of commandments. It is the act of Redemption and the giving of the Spirit, and the empowerment to walk in the light as He is in the light. It is peace, love and joy in the Holy Ghost. The NT isn't rules, it's life. We don't need rules to breathe. We don't need rules to feel hunger. We do those things because we have breath.
We don't need rules to love. We don't need rules to hunger for righteousness, we do those things because we have the Breathe of Life.
Asking which commandments apply, and which do not is the wrong question.
There is no need to deny the command of Matthew 28:19-20. The reason some attempt to nullify the requirement to learn and obey all that Christ commanded is it does not fit with a certain mistaken man-made theology.
I have rarely found people who deny Matthew 28:19-20 (actually, I have personally found none but I know some to exist). When I was in seminary I researched the leadership of R.B.C. Howell. One of his first struggles was with the anti-missions movement. But it seems rare to actually find many these days who hold to such mistaken theology (now that I think of it, it seems that the Amish may lean towards that direction insofar as rejecting evangelism in favor of separation). Do you encounter many who deny that we are to evangelize? If so, do you know their justification for not bearing witness of the gospel of Christ?
Oh, and on a side note, (from someone who believes that all men have both an opportunity and a responsibility to accept Christ) while I do not necessarily believe in “logical orders”, I do not see how you are reasoning out Matthew 23:13. The comment is directed to those who “shut the kingdom of heaven” against men. It has to do with the intent of the scribes and Pharisees, not other men (they shut the kingdom of heaven against men…they become an obstacle). The passage does not mean that the scribes and Pharisees literally held the keys to the kingdom and shut people out.
I don't know anyone who denies any of the commands of Scripture. Obedience to commandments does not define a marriage, though the woman is commanded to obey her husband. Obedience to parents does not define sonship, though children are commanded to obey their parents.
But those that love their husbands and parents and God, will obey them.
Judaism is based on obedience to a carnal commandment, despite the corruptions of one's heart.
Hi JonC, post 11 I read as indicating we are not under an obligation to learn and to teach all Christ commanded.
Matthew 23:13 is straightforward, no need to "reason out" some arcane theology. The men were in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven. That means they were (1) seeking God effectively. And then they were blocked which means (2) they were not being compelled by irresistible grace. None of the forgoing is dependent on the context that Jesus was teaching false teachers block some seeking salvation. And even that truth is problematic for some because according to there mistaken view, false teachers cannot block those being compelled via irresistible grace.
And I disagree, the words mean what they say, "nor do you (Scribes, false teachers) allow those who are entering to go in."
No, I do not encounter those who say were should not evangelize, but the question before us, roughly how many commands are we to learn and teach, less than a dozen, or more than seventy? The answer is more than seventy. And even in this thread I have encountered those of a certain theology who deny it.
Thanks, Van. I see now how you would object (almost as if we, being under Christ, became lawless rather than obedient).
I think there are a few different ways of viewing obedience in relation to being saved. Sometimes it seems to me that people talk past each other (maybe viewing things from one angle unaware that the other has a different perspective or understanding). I do not believe, for example, that we are obligated in the sense that there are a bunch of rules that we need to follow. But I do believe that we are obligated in the sense that if we are indeed "in Christ," that if we love Him, then we will obey His commandments (I see this as being descriptive of the Christian life, if that makes any sense or difference).
How this works out in my understanding is that those who love Jesus obey His commandments. Not because they love Him, but that this love manifests itself as obedience. I am not insisting, of course, that my understanding is the only one...or even that it is correct for that matter (although I believe it to be so). I just hope that at least you can see where I am coming from.
Likewise, I do understand what you are saying insofar as the Jews not allowing others to enter. But I also disagree on the grounds that the words mean what they say (we disagree on what they say, I suppose). It is an indictment against the Jews, not a description of people who are trying to enter (I view your interpretation as adding that to the text). For illustration, a shop owner may be guilty of not allowing service to a particular race. This does not mean that even one single person of that race ever visited or even wanted to visit his shop. The Jews were guilty, but it is adding to the text to assume that there were people trying to get into the kingdom only to be denied access by the scribes and Pharisees.
whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath,
he cannot be my disciple.
Do I have to forsake all my worldly possessions
or can I disobey this commandment
and keep them all?
There are some who insist "forsake" means to literally "separate from" such things. But here I think you will find it means something closer to "count as loss". And that (as stated here) is not a commandment but a statement.
You mean count it as a lost when I forsake all I have by selling
all my worldly possessions and give it alaway as according to this here Jesus instructed those who follow Him to do?
Sell that ye have, and give alms;
provide yourselves bags which wax not old,
a treasure in the heavens that faileth not,
where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
Am I really to only have treasure in heaven?
I do not mean that you sell all of your possessions at all. But if you believe that this is what God is calling you to do, then by all means you need to do it.
Since the disciples listening to Jesus speak those words did not go and sell all they owned (for example, Peter did not sell all he owned, but he did use what was entrusted to his care for the Kingdom). Since Jesus’ words were not taken by even his closest followers who witnessed Him speak those statements as meaning we are commanded to sell all that we have then perhaps we overreach when we come to that conclusion. Maybe, just maybe, the correct interpretation hinges on the conclusion “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”
Are you really to only have treasure in heaven? Yes. What we have here are not “treasures” but resources for the kingdom. We enjoy them, and that is not in itself wrong. But if those are our treasures, the things we set our minds on….what we live for…then this is idolatry. Tithing of ten percent only pointed to a time when we ourselves will be completely given over. We are to present our bodies as living sacrifices, brother. Everything we own and everything we are belong to Christ. This is repentance. All of your questions here are actually summed up in two words - Repent and Believe. Once that happens, everything else is descriptive of your life.