The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Iran and the Bomb

Discussion in 'Politics' started by poncho, Jun 30, 2013.

  1. poncho

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    Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Facts

    As our Nobel laureate President ascended to the podium
    on September 25 at the United Nations for his last international speech before the election, we again were the recipients of fine oratory and rhetorical flourish about America’s problems in the world. Focusing on the Middle East, Central Asia, and North Africa—what’s often misleadingly termed, “the Muslim world”—Obama singled out Iran’s treaty-entitled uranium enrichment activities, saying “make no mistake: a nuclear-armed Iran is not a challenge that can be contained.”

    Media reports are awash in misleading narratives, incomplete histories, and outright fiction about Iran and its nuclear program.

    Obama’s remarks were dutifully transcribed by our stenographer class, as can be expected, despite intelligence-community conclusions to the contrary and the historical precedent of containment as Cold War policy. This follows the latest media scare concerning Iran’s nuclear capabilities, and the recent tiff between the U.S. and Israel over it. Like Obama’s speech (and because of similarly unchallenged statements by politicians), many media reports are awash in misleading narratives, incomplete histories, and outright fiction about Iran and its nuclear program. Given how easily the American public and media were manipulated into believing that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, this moment should give us some pause. The disastrous effects of that $3 Trillion Dollar War are still being felt across the world. For those not interested in seeing a much-bloodier, costlier sequel, I offer this introductory course in intellectual self-defense. The only way to rebuff and dismantle propaganda is to be aware of the truth on which it claims to comment.
     
  2. kyredneck

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  3. church mouse guy

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    I think that it is incorrect to say that Iran is not a threat to the USA as the source says:


    Assuming that these facts are true, there are other geopolitical problems if Iran obtains the bomb. Book TV carried this weekend a talk by Luis Fleishman on his book about the so-called "Bolivarian Revolution" in South and Central America (called America's backyard to the dismay of those countries).

    In his speech Professor Fleischman pointed out that the death of Chavez did not end the movement, which includes Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Ecuador, and Bolivia as well as other leftist groups in other countries. It is thought that President Correa of Ecuador will emerge as the new leader of this group.

    Now if Iran gets the bomb, it can be transported to Venezuela or Cuba for use against the USA. Iran is getting help from Russia and also China. China is active in trying to cause the USA trouble from neighbors since China is facing Japan, South Korea, the Philippines and Taiwan close to home.

    It should be noted that Iran is very active diplomatically in the countries that are part of the Bolivarian Revolution, as is China. The current American policy of not standing for democracy in South America and Central America and using the Organization for American States to help our neighbors and friends is part of the general foreign policy disaster resulting from an amateur in the Oval Office.

    So there is a multiplier effect for Iran that brings the threat much closer to home for the USA.
     
  4. poncho

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    You might be right about all that CMG but does that give us the right to use the MEK inside Iran to blow things up and kill people like we're using the FSA (Al Qaeda) in Libya? And does that excuse all the lies Washington and the MSM have been telling us about Iran's nuclear ambitions?

    I don't know about you but I'm about fed up with all the lies and fearmongering coming out of Washington. It's at the point now that if Washington says the sky is blue or water is wet I have to verify it before I'll believe it.
     
    #4 poncho, Jul 1, 2013
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  5. church mouse guy

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    Poncho, Professor Fleishman stated in his speech on his book Latin America in the Post-Chávez Era: The Security Threat to the United States that Iran has underground concrete bunkers with steel shields 300 feet below the surface so it is questionable if our bunker-busting bombs could go that deep. I believe that Iran is a threat to the USA because of the many failed states in Latin America as the Professor says and that these states will be unable to resist military intrusions of Iranian weapons aimed at the USA.

    As for the credibility gap that you write about, Poncho, the amateur in the Oval Office has been caught in so many false statements that I have to use logic to see that the Middle East is in an unstable collapse that threatens not only Israel but also states such as Jordan and Saudi Arabia and perhaps Turkey. And it is easy to see that our policies in Latin America have been abandoned for some strange fascination of not wanting to end the violence in Mexico and of wanting to solve the problems of Mexico by taking in millions of people that we cannot care for. Even if we could use more labor in this country, that would not solve the violence in Mexico caused by our narcotic consumption and our refusal to regulate our border. As this collapse spreads to places like Guatemala and other countries in Central America, it easy to see how Iran with Chinese help can meddle in this hemisphere to our hurt.

    The fact that the Democrats are not believable only adds to the urgency of checking Iran, which is a threat to the USA, contrary to what your source of WhoWhatWhy and the guide say in their 2nd of 8 points because of American military decline and vulnerability overseas and in Latin America.

    Look, Venezuela has had a bloodbath where many families have lost members because criminal thugs have been let loose for political reasons in Venezuela. The human rights problems in the states where the Bolivarian Revolution prevails must be addressed because these are our neighbors and friends suffering in Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Bolivia and Ecuador. It is no accident that Snowden may be headed from China/Russia to Ecuador, which has given sanctuary to FARC, a private communist army funded by Chavez in part.
     
  6. poncho

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    First thing I want to know is who is this Professor Fleishman, what is his agenda and who is he connected to?

    It's not that hard to figure out CMG. Our borders are unsecured because of our "free trade" agreements with Mexico and Canada. NAFTA for instance calls for the "free movement of people and goods" between Mexico and the USA. Isn't that exactly what we're seeing today?

    The violence in Mexico would diminish if we legalized drugs. Look CMG I know drugs are bad and we need to do something about our problems we have with them but by now it should be obvious that stubbornly sticking to a failed policy that has made the problems worse instead of better isn't the way to go. I'm not seeing any benefits from the 500 billion dollars a year the banks like the HSBC is making from laundering the drug cartel's money are you?

    The democrats aren't the only ones that can't be believed. The republicans lie to us just as fast and just as much as the democrats. I'm sorry but I just don't see the sense in taking sides with known liars no matter which party they come from.

    Is this supposed to excuse our turning the MEK loose inside Iran to blow things up and kill people, or funding and arming Al Qaeda in Syria so they can blow things up and kill people then eat their hearts and livers?

    These people (our allies) are murdering Christians and eating their organs. I don't see how that makes us any better than the communist leaders or Iranians we love to demonize for their "sins".

    I think it just makes us big fat hypocrites that think nothing of supporting gangs of crazed religious murderers to destabilize other nations so we can expand our "sphere of influence" and grab up all the resources before China and Russia can.
     
    #6 poncho, Jul 1, 2013
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  7. Salty

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    IDIOT IS a mentally retarded person.
    I would not expect them to understand
     
  8. church mouse guy

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    OK, Poncho, Luis Fleischman's LinkedIn page says this:

    I can tell you that he speaks Spanish fluently and seems very knowledge about Latin America. I think that he said Florida Atlantic University is in Jupiter, Florida. I was misspelling his name, regrettably.
     
  9. poncho

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    Thanks CMG I'll see what I can find on him. :thumbs:
     
  10. church mouse guy

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  11. poncho

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    Chavez & Thaksin: A Tale of Two Socialists and Western Hypocrisy

    The Australian condemns Chavez' "populist economics" and ends its piece by stating:
    Thumbing your nose at Washington and aligning your country with the world's worst dictatorships is a recipe for disaster. Those who come after Mr Chavez should see that and change course.​
    Thumbing your nose at Washington and its interests is indeed a recipe for disaster, as has been thumbing your nose at brutal empires throughout human history. Your nation will become the target of covert military operations, terrorism, political subversion, and economic sabotage, the very root of Venezuela's current malaise. Thumb your nose long and hard enough at the West, and you may even become subject to an outright invasion, as was the case in Iraq, Libya, Vietnam, and Afghanistan. Or, you may suffer a long-term proxy war, as Syria now faces.

    In reality, the Australian reveals what Hugo Chavez was really guilty of. Not of being a "ruthless autocrat," or of being a socialist, but of being independent and for having the nerve to challenge the extraterritorial interests of an increasingly violent and unhinged West.

    CONTINUE . . .
     
  12. church mouse guy

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    Your source is incorrect about Chavez, Poncho. They don't call Chavez El Loco for nothing.

    It is not true that Chavez was a harmless socialist who merely lowered significantly the standard of living in his country. Fleischman documents how there are 50,000 Cubans in Venezuela helping to repress the population. The telephone system is heavily tapped and they record every telephone call. People are afraid to go out after 6 PM. Criminals and political thugs roam the streets and there is a high crime rate. People are arrested by the police on false charges and disappear, sometimes at the hands of the police and sometimes at the hands of the criminals in the jails. Newspapers and tv stations have been shut down en masse. The Colombians captured computers in the jungles of Ecuador that showed that Chavez was funding the Communist FARC army and giving them sanctuary in Venezuela to regroup and attack Colombia. Ecuador was also giving the FARC sanctuary. Chavez is working with the drug cartels so that drugs flow freely through all Venezuelan ports and airports in order to destroy the populations of free countries and weaken them. The judicial system is under the thumb of the Chavistas so that in the case of one judge who let a prisoner free for time served as was normal in Venezuelan justice but Chavez wanted the man in jail so that the judge was imprisoned and raped and left pregnant. Nearly every family in Venezuela has had a member or a neighbor attacked or murdered or imprisoned falsely by Chavez. Chavez openly attacked verbally the Catholic Church in Venezuela. The last election in Venezuela was so fraudulent that Maduro refused to even count the votes publically or allow a recount. It is Maduro's unpopularity that leads many to think that President Rafael Correa of Ecuador will now be the head of the Bolivarian Revolution in Latin America. It will be interesting to see if Snowden will end up in this Bolivarian Revolutionary state. It is a known fact that Iran and China have close connections to Venezuela.

    The repression in Venezuela is confirmed by refugees from Venezuela. The closing down of tv stations, etc, took place in public and is no secret. The seizure of property and the seizure of businesses is also public knowledge. The Heinz Co. even lost a tomato canning factory that was closed to Chavez shortly after Kerry married the Heinz widow. The widespread and persistent power outages are also widely documented. The oil industry had discharged the engineers and replaced them with the cronies. The attempt to wrap this repression in the name of the great Simon Bolivar is an insult to the memory of the man who overthrew the rule of colonial Spain on a whole continent.

    Iran is a threat to the USA both in the Middle East and in Latin America. Venezuela is a police state engaged in massive violations of human rights and is allied with both Iran and China.
     
  13. poncho

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    That doesn't sound all that much different than the USA CMG.

    Except we're allied with Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood. Once the drugs leave south America the CIA makes sure most of em get here unmolested. I mean the CIA has to have money to arm terrorists all over the world these days, right? And what would the too big to fail banks do if they could no longer launder all that drug money (500 billion annually) for the cartels?

    I'm sorry CMG but I'm just not able to put a burning tire around someone else's neck for the same things we do on a daily basis.

    Okay so El Loco was a thug that used and abused his people but so is our president and congress. Maybe not to the point El Loco did but hey we do it on a global scale and we're just getting started.
     
    #13 poncho, Jul 2, 2013
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  14. church mouse guy

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    Poncho, Chavez was along the lines of Castro. It is much more serious in Venezuela than you acknowledge. The alliance with Iran and Venezuela and their minions proves that Iran is a threat to the USA beyond any shadow of a doubt. And we are not a terror state in spite of the Democrat Party's NSA and IRS abuse, and the other Obama scandals.

    The problem with Libertarians is that they are really cousins of the Democrats on social issues and in their anti-Republican comments. Libertarians don't have a nice word for Bush but let Obama slide and Obama has done far more to encroach upon civil liberties than Bush. I know in Indiana, Libertarians and Republicans have a healthy dislike for each other and I have never been all that happy that Ron Paul chose to caucus with the GOP when he was in Congress.

    As for your comment about money laundering, that is another thing that Chavez did for the South American cartels. So you have Chavez allowing shipments of drugs to all of Europe and North America, for which we have evidence, and you make allegations about the CIA for which you offer no evidence.

    I don't see how you can claim that Iran is not a threat to the USA when we have 5 neighboring countries active in the Bolivarian Revolution, a form of communism, and other neighbors such as Guatemala in a state of collapse as a failed state from drug cartel activity and Iran and China openly trying to capitalize on this situation. I don't see any leadership from Libertarians to stand up to this threat and restore freedom in these six states. Libertarian leadership is absent--MIA by personal choice.
     
  15. poncho

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    We're the biggest sponsor of terror on the planet CMG. If we aren't threatening other nations with crushing sanctions we're supporting terror groups like the MEK and Al Qaeda so they can blow things up and kill people as destabilization forces. The republicans and democrats are both in on it.

    There's plenty of books that have been written by CIA and DEA insiders that have documented the CIA/DEA drug running operations. Examples, Air America and Iran Contra.

    I never said Iran isn't a threat to anyone. I just believe it isn't as big a threat as our proven liars in government make it out to be. Saddam was going to kill us all with a giant mushroom cloud remember? Turned out be nothing but fearmongering. The Viet Namese attacked our ships in the gulf of Tonkin, remember? Turned out to be a fabrication. The Spanish blew up the Maine, remember? Turned out to be an accident.

    Our government has a long history of making mountains out of mole hills and fearmongering so it could go to war and look like the good guys CMG. They lie to us and manipulate us all the time. How many times do we have to be lied to before we stop believing the lies?

    And shame on the libertarians for believing that we shouldn't initiate agression against others. Shame on them. Not to long ago, before the "crazies" or neocons dreamed up the pre emptive strike doctrine I' bet a nickel you held the libertarian position of not initiating agression too.

    Most everyone did in those days. That's before we let fear and the fearmongers take control of our minds.
     
    #15 poncho, Jul 3, 2013
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  16. church mouse guy

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  17. poncho

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    Okay for the sake of argument let's say you are right. What do we do? Bomb bomb bomb Iran like McCain and the neocons want? What'll happen then? Ya think Russia and China are just going to stand aside and quake in their boots because we're so big bad and powerful? We've been walking all over Russia and China's toes with our meddling in the Middle East and North Africa. Sooner or later they're going to say enough is enough. I've read "The Grand Chessboard" you think the Russians and Chinese haven't?

    The Russians and Chinese DO HAVE NUKES there is no doubt about that and THEY ARE ALREADY AIMED AT US!

    We're already militarily involved in 74 countires around the globe either on a war footing, acting as "advisers" or just acting as the world's strictest parent's by punishing "bad" nations with sanctions and/or using terrorist groups to destabilize "uppity" regimes.

    Who elected the USA to be the world's parents anyway?

    If you haven't noticed we're broke CMG. We're broke because we have a criminal class of elites sucking all the wealth out us by bailing out foreign banks, waging multiple endless wars and "kinetic military actions" otherwise known as unconstitutional, illegal "covert" wars all over the world. They keep throwing more money into failed policies like more money is going to turn failures into successes and just generally concentrating all the wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands.

    We can't afford to be the world's parents and make every nation on earth behave like we think they should.

    If there is any regime on this planet that's dangerous to our security it's the regime in Washington DC because it's out of it's mind and totally out of control.
     
    #17 poncho, Jul 3, 2013
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  18. church mouse guy

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    The fact that we are bankrupt makes our military situation even more dangerous, Poncho. We could have stopped buying oil from Venezuela and slowed down their increasing power and influence. We could have used more sophisticated diplomacy in Latin America to show our hopes for the growth of genuine republics in Latin America. And we could have closed our borders and let our drug addicts have withdrawal symptoms.
     
  19. poncho

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    Woulda shoulda coulda didn't.

    Washington was never interesting in building relationships CMG it's always been more interested in being the big dog on the block and keeping Latin American countries divided, chaotic and in submission . . . to Washington.

    Washington's hubris will be the end of us.
     
    #19 poncho, Jul 3, 2013
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  20. church mouse guy

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    Happy Fourth of July, Poncho, and everyone else! Poncho, we must put solve our own problems as soon as possible, as I am sure that you agree.
     

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