The consistency in "hate"

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by robustheologian, May 21, 2015.

  1. robustheologian

    robustheologian
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    This is for those Calvinists here who believe that God literally hates the non-elect. The verse usually used to support that view is Romans 9:13 — "Just as it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'." My question is, do you who support this literal definition of "hate" read the same literalness into Luke 14:26 — “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple"?

    To view "hate" used in Romans 9:13 as literal and the same word used in Luke 14:26 as figurative would be inconsistent and biased towards one view of election and non-election/reprobation...wouldn't it?
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    Good point thanks for bringing it up. I look forward to seeing the responses.
     
  3. McCree79

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    I am not that Calvinist you are looking for, but would still like to answer. Paul is quoting Malachi. So we must look at the Hebrew word. The word in Malachi is sane. Not the emotional, malice filled hate which is sina. Sane can mean to be unloved or shunned. Paul's meaning is the same as Malachi's. Esau was shunned, passed over, blessing withheld and left to divine judgment. Jacob was loved and chosen for divine blessing.

    The verse is very applicable for a Calvinistic view. God passes over the reprobate. He chooses others for divine blessing.

    *obviously Luke is not speaking of emotional hate either. It is a way of saying that by comparison, we should love Christ that much more than our family.

    * The usage of "hate" in Luke and Romans, while the seem Greek word, can not fairly be compared, due to the "hate" in Romans being a quote from a Hebrew text. Therefore we must look at the Hebrew word used, not the Greek.
     
    #3 McCree79, May 21, 2015
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  4. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Robust,

    I am not a Calvinist, but allow me to give my opinion, even if one didn't interpret Romans 9:13 as a literal hate, there are other passages that mention God hating the reprobate that would have to be viewed as literal from the context.

    "5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." (Psalm 5:5-6) The Hebrew word used in Hebrews 5:5 is indeed the word, "sane", but per Strong's Concordance the definition is "hate". Per NAS Exhaustive Concordance the definition is also "to hate", and the word is translated into English using the following words in the NASB, "detest (1), enemy (3), enmity (1), foes (1), hate (78), hated (28), hated her intensely (1), hates (19), hating (2), hatred (1), turned against (1), turns against (2), unloved (7).". These definitions and translations are all referenced here http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8130.htm

    and again,

    "
    The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." (Psalm 11:5-6) The same Hebrew word used in the prior passage I cited is again used here. Further, nearly every English translation of the Bible also translates this into the English as the word "hate" and we know it is rare for translations to all be in agreement. One can verify this here https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Psalm%2011:5

    These vessels of wrath were made fit for destruction as Romans tells us and also, "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4)

    The Lord making and destroying the wicked will, " shew his wrath and to make his power known" (Romans 9:22). His wrath is a justified wrath as a result of his Holiness he punishes the nonelect sinner and in this too we will praise Him!
    The nonelect are referred to by Jesus as " of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (John 8:44), thus praise be to God when he righteously destroys the devil and sends to eternal torment His seed! "“Through death He [Christ] might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14). No child of God would lament God hating and destroying the father of the nonelect (i.e. the devil), thus why should a child of God be upset if God hate's and punishes for an eternity the devil's seed?

    These passages in Psalms also prove verses such as John 3:16 must not mean every human being in existence is loved by God. To assert God loves the children of the devil is absurd.

    Brother Joe
     
    #4 BrotherJoseph, May 21, 2015
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  5. kyredneck

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    Excellent point made. Thank you.
     
  6. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    I'm no 5-pointer…..

    Safe to say God feels passionate about all people. I feel hate and love could be close to the same emotion, and the opposite of both is indifference.
     
  7. robustheologian

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    I'm a 5-pointer (if we want to call it that) and I believe God is compassionate towards all.
     
  8. Rippon

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    1 Samuel 15:3
    Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants...

    Psalm 137:8,9
    O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us--he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

    Jeremiah 7:16
    So do not pray for this people nor ofer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you.

    Jeremiah 11:11
    Therefore this is what the Lord says: "I will bring on them a disaster they cannot escape. Although they cry out to me, I will not listen to them."

    Jeremiah 11:14
    "Do not pray for this people nor off any plea or petition for the, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress."

    Jeremiah 14:11,12
    Then the Lord said to me, "Do not pray for the well-being of this people. Although they fast, I will not listen to their cry; though they offer burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Instead I will destroy them with the sword, fasmine and plague."

    Ezekiel 8:18
    Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them."
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    The last one is indifference...so are most of them actually. :)
     
  10. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Rippon,

    Nice point regarding those scriptures showing God's attitude toward the non-elect. I was not aware an of them (guess I better read my Old Testament more) :smilewinkgrin:
     

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