The contrast between 'John 2:10' and 'Ephesians 5:18'

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by standingfirminChrist, Apr 2, 2006.

  1. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    In another thread, a poster said the word drunk in both these passages meant the same thing.

    The poster was inferring that Jesus made alcoholic wine at the wedding feast.

    The word drunk in John 2:10 is not the same as the word drunk in Ephesians 5:18...

    In John 2, the Greek word is methuo

    In Ephesians 5, the Greek word is methusko

    Both can mean intoxication, but the wine that Jesus served could not have been fermented.

    Jesus would have been sending every party guest to hell if He had created alcoholic wine.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Jesus knew of the evil of fermented wine. He knew that it would clothe a man with rags. He knew that it would cause a man ruin. That it would bring destruction and death.

    Why would He promote the very thing that would keep man out of His kingdom?
     
  2. menageriekeeper

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    Oh, come on Standing Firm! Drinking doesn't send people to hell. Lack of faith in Jesus Christ is what sends a man to hell.

    (shakes head) If our sins are truely covered by His blood then they CAN'T send us to hell.

    Therefore the arguement is: Whether drinking is always a sin, sometimes a sin or not a sin at all. If John the Baptist had taken a drink, it would have been a sin. (not the drinking, but the vow breaking). If Christ took a drink, supplied a drink, well, is He not Creator of All? He can do as He pleases. So if He did then it was not sin for Him because we know He was sinless.

    Is it sin for me and you? Yes, for you, because you believe it is. Yes, for me, if I drink in front of you, knowing it is offensive to you. No, for me if I do so in a place when no one is around to be offended. (And I don't believe I'm called to be a mind reader and not have a glass of wine with my dinnner out for fear that someone might be offended. If I'm in a place that serves such, then I expect that those also in that place have no problem with alcohol being served or they wouldn't be there.)
     
  3. computerjunkie

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    Absolutely OUTSTANDING post, MK!

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. JackRUS

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    I agree with MK here. The guests at the wedding were already unsaved anyway...including Mary!

    Of course she got saved later after the Resurrection.

    And the wine that Jesus made was alcoholic because the steward commented that the good wine is usually served first because after drinking for a while folks didn't care what they drank later on.

    "Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works." Ecc. 9:7

    I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but it's the truth. In some cultures it is acceptable for some wine to be drunk with a meal. Of course getting drunk is not ever acceptable with God. Folks here need to start discerning the difference. I should add that I agree with the folks here that fear that even a sip for some that have never had a drink could lead to alcoholism. So the best thing is complete abstinence.

    Wine is like sex. Not all sex is fornication; and not all drinking is getting drunk. The Lord has set certain parameters around the use of both. And He created both as well.

    "He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
    And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart." Ps. 104:14-15

    And no, grape juice does not make the heart glad. Unless of course you happen to own stock in Welch's Co.
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    Isaiah, chapter 65

    8: Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster , and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

    21: And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.


    Jeremiah, chapter 40
    10: As for me, behold, I will dwell at Mizpah to serve the Chaldeans, which will come unto us: but ye, gather ye wine , and summer fruits, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken.


    How could the wine be gathered from the fields and put into vessels? How could "new wine" be found in the clusters. (cluster is the pod of grapes)

    Did it turn to alcohol on the vine in the fields?


    quote JackRus;

    "He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth ;
    And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart." Ps. 104:14-15

    Is this Scripture saying the wine came out of the earth?
     
  6. JackRUS

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    No Brother Bob. Scripture is saying that God provided the earth, the wine, the cattle, the bread and everything that we enjoy.

    The earth does not get the glory. 1 Cor. 1:31

    "Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah." Ps. 68:19

    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/6135/inductive2.htm
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    JackRUS;

    I know that it all comes from God, maybe I didn't ask the question right. Did God cause the wine to come out of the earth also as he did the grass, food and oil and apparently "wine".
     
  8. rjprince

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    Both CAN[/] mean intoxication? BALONEY! BOTH DO MEAN INTOXICATION!


    3184 meyuw methuo meth-oo’-o

    from another form of 3178; TDNT-4:545,576; v

    AV-be drunken 5, have well drunk 1, be made drunk 1; 7

    1) to be drunken
    2) metaph. of one who has shed blood or murdered profusely


    3182 meyuskw methusko meth-oos’-ko

    a prolonged (transitive) form of 3184; TDNT-4:545,*; v

    AV-be drunken 2, be drunk 1; 3

    1) to intoxicate, make drunk
    2) to get drunk, become intoxicated


    3178 meyh methe meth’-ay

    apparently a root word; TDNT-4:545,576; n f

    AV-drunkenness 3; 3

    1) intoxication
    2) drunkenness


    The one metaphorical use of methuw in Rev 17:8 in no way weakens the meaning of the word. The “great whore” is described as being “drunken with the blood of the saints” – it is like saying she was intoxicated with the fervor of the slaughter.

    I am utterly amazed at the lengths to which some will go to deny the clear meaning of a text to avoid dealing with it as it reads!

    Both methuw and methuskw are from the same root, methay and they mean drunk! To suggest that this word group “can mean intoxication” is sloppy hermeneutics at best.

    SFIC,
    The intent of both your heart and the heart of dear BrotherBob is admirable. The danger of alcohol and the ravaging effects of its abuse are undeniable. BUT when we subvert the clear meaning of a text with the presupposition that it cannot mean what it clearly says on the grounds that I cannot reconcile it with what I believe about the issue, we are in essence placing ourselves ABOVE the Word of GOD. How can any preacher not be terrified to take such a stance! It is simply beyond my grasp…
     
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
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    Well, I have stated my beliefs on this subject and I certainly see it is not the belief of the majority on this board. The Scripture does teach us that it is possible that at times the grapes in the field were called " wine ".

    Jeremiah, chapter 40
    "10": As for me, behold, I will dwell at Mizpah to serve the Chaldeans, which will come unto us: but ye, gather ye wine , and summer fruits, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken.

    "11": Likewise when all the Jews that were in Moab, and among the Ammonites, and in Edom, and that were in all the countries, heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant of Judah, and that he had set over them Gedaliah the son of Ahikam the son of Shaphan;

    "12": Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.

    "13": Moreover Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces that were in the fields , came to Gedaliah to Mizpah,

    I know from experience that a "cup" of wine will cloud your mind and to believe that they were all (including Jesus) drinking and preaching at the same time is just too hard for me to accept after seeing in my life the destruction of wine itself. Now some will say, we don't mean "drunk" but one drink by some people will make them drunk, I know that from experience too. We learn from that we experience. I certainly see the side of those who say it was indeed fermented wine also, but find it in the church to be a dangereous thing to teach. I prefer to teach to "abstain from all alcoholic beverages) and use the many Scriptures that teach for us to do so.
     
  10. rjprince

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    BB,

    OK. I am willing to grant that the grapes in the OT may have been referred to by yayin. But in the NT, oinos never means anything but fermented wine.

    ONE POINT I DO NEED TO EMPHASIZE THAT I BELIEVE WAS IN MY INTIAL POST ON THE OTHER THREAD. ONE OF THE ANCIENT WRITERS (not Biblical) SAID THAT ANYONE WHO DRANK WINE STRAIGHT WAS A MADMAN...

    IN NT TIMES, WINE WAS COMMONLY DILUTED WITH 1-4 PARTS WATER. THEREFORE A CUP OF WINE WOULD NOT NORMALLY DULL THE MIND...
     
  11. rjprince

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    and,

    I certainly agree that total abstinence is a good thing and to be encouraged. It is and has always be my and my wife's personal practice. Neither of us have ever partaken of beverage alcohol. My only pont in the whole post is that from a Biblical standpoint, it CANNOT be demanded...
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    I completely understand your position and respect it. I truly think this discussion has maybe in the end brought the best out of most of us. Amen
     
  13. Frenchy

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    In total agreement!
     
  14. Frenchy

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    WHAT! :eek:

    Jack if she had died before Christ rose again she still would have gone to heaven based on her faith alone.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. rjprince

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    BBob,

    Thanks bro. I am honored to have your respect for my position! We do not always have to agree, but it is certainly great when we can be agreeable in our disagreement!
     
  16. JackRUS

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    WHAT! :eek:

    Jack if she had died before Christ rose again she still would have gone to heaven based on her faith alone.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]What faith alone?

    In Mark 3:21 Jesus' mother and her other children thought that Jesus was nuts. In verse 31 they are calling for Him to stop what He was doing because the scribes said that Jesus got His power from Beelzebub.

    In verse 32 Jesus is told that they are outside and Jesus replied in verses 34-35 that they are not His brethren because they were not doing the will of God as described in John 6:40.

    They certainly didn't believe that He was God in the flesh or the Messiah. And one reading of John 3:18,36 and 8:24 will show that were quite unsaved at that time based on Mark 3.
     
  17. JackRUS

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    [​IMG] to all!
     
  18. rjprince

    rjprince
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    JackRus

    Mark 3:21 does NOT say that His mother and brothers said, “He is beside Himself”. The word para is not that specific. Yes, the NIV does translate in a general way “family” and the French Louis Segond does take it in that manner, numerous other versions do NOT. We read in the later portion of the chapter that his mother and siblings arrived seeking Him, but there is NEVER any indication from the text that Mary had any doubts AT ALL about Who He was! How could she! She was the virgin to whom the Angel had spoken! She was the promised virgin of Isa 7:14! NO. NO WAY SHE DID NOT HAVE FAITH! At the wedding in Cana, she KNEW Jesus could solve the problem...

    UNSAVED? Only to the degree that John the Baptist was unsaved.

    His siblings? Now that is a different story. Imagine YOUR third grade rabbi comparing YOU to your older brother JESUS! (please pardon my modernized westernization of the text) It was not till after the resurrection that James, His brother came to salvation.
     
  19. JackRUS

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    You then have to explain away the 'brethren' contrast given by our Lord in Mark 3:32-35. You will note that He also mentions the term "mother" there.

    Sorry, but I'm sticking to my interpretation.
     

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