The DIFFERENCE Between USA and Radical Muslims in Torture

Discussion in 'Politics' started by righteousdude2, Apr 24, 2009.

  1. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2
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    You may ask, is there really a difference between how the US gets it's information from prisoners and how the radical Muslim gets their information??

    America may use water-boarding; naked solitary with lights off and creepy-crawly-bugs on the thugs; slamming against the wall, etc., but at least ALL of those captured and held at Gitmo still have their head attached to their body when they leave.

    This one fact should put an end to any argument that the kind of treatment used by the Americans to gain high level information is totally more humane than that used by the enemy which ends with a public beheading on television, no less.

    So to you who are crying "foul" when you discover that the CIA has tortured our nation's enemies in an attempt to gain information that may stave off another 9/11, let's not forget that nothing done to these guys is as humiliating and as final as the dreaded beheading.

    For-crying-out-loud, we are at war. And "war is hell!" It is never going to be a day at the park when it comes to fighting a war. It means that you, the soldier on the front-line and in the foxhole, will do whatever is necessary to adapt and stay alive. And that "necessary" thing is often ugly, and very difficult to talk about in front of people who were not there. War, and the choices made to keep the soldier alive will more than likely cross the line, but it's either "kill-or-be-killed" and the rules-of-engagement are not always right or wrong, black-or-white.

    Real war is not like Hollywood where Mel Gibson can get blown up at the end of the movie, and return in another action flick two years later. In real war, there are No second chances. It's not like paint-ball warfare. Real war is unforgiving when it comes to making a mistake, so, that is why I say there are NO rules that can be followed in every situation you come upon.

    War is ugly. And all of us would be happy to live in a world without wars, but, wars have been with us since the days of old, and if anyone knew how to fight a war, it was our Creator. Often he would instruct Israel to kill every living and breathing thing. Today that would be very upsetting to the liberals, but, wars happen, and if you want to maintain the life style that you love so dearly, you need to let those that fight the wars, fight them [the wars] without tying their hands behind their backs.

    One last thought: Everyone blames Bush, and his arrogance for the hate we feel from most nations around the world. Let me remind you of this one truth...Bush was POTUSA for a mere 7 month and 2 weeks before 9/11 happened. The plans to bomb the Twin Towers was in place long before Bush was POTUSA. Seven months and a few weeks was not enough time for the world to become so turned off with Bush that we were bombed. The hate we felt on 9/11 was solidly in place long before Bush even tossed his ten-gallon hat in the ring to be a candidate for POTUSA.

    America has its share of enemies, and nothing Obama does will change that. Their hate may be masked to make it look like things have changed, but, don't you think for one minute that we are loved by the world. The world is a jealous place to live in, and it is the jealousy of other nations toward the perceived wealth of this nation that drives the hate and desire to see America fall from it's throne. No one will come to our rescue should we stumble and fall; no one, no, not one!

    We are on our own folks. Like-it-or-not, we will be left to fight our wars on our own. The only nation that will come to our rescue is England, and even they do it begrudgingly.

    So the next time you get upset with America's treatment of prisoners of war, if that is what they truly are, just remember, those that interrogate do it to protect your right to attend an off-Broadway play; go to a National League Baseball game; and shop-till-you-drop on Rodeo Drive; etc.

    This is a great nation. Yes, we may do some things that should remain unknown, because once you know, you don't have the stomach to approve. That is why some have been called to fight [warriors], and others are called to be anything but a warrior. I thank God for our warriors. They allow me to enjoy the riches and beauty of this great nation.

    I salute those who protect me, and live to serve this nation's need for protection.

    Pastor Paul:type:
     
  2. JustChristian

    JustChristian
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    So you as a Christian believe that anything is acceptable in war? There is a line between man and the beast. I would hope America doesn't ever cross it again.
     
  3. LadyEagle

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    Well that is your opinion but because our people are no longer allowed to do what is necessary to protect us, we will lose this war. So when your town is taken over by sword wielding jihad marauders, your family is about to be beheaded, or you and yours are blown to smitherines in a nuclear blast by terrorists, remember there were once upon a time those who were willing to put their own lives on the line for you and me before they were eviscerated and demasculated by Czar Obama and his ilk.

    Excellent post, Paul, as always. :thumbs:
     
  4. righteousdude2

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    You Probably Would Have Come Down Hard on....

    Truman for dropping the bombs on Japan...and, while it took the lives of innocent civilians, mostly women and children, and old folks, this horrendous act of warfare may have actually saved more lives [both Japanese and Americans] had we been forced to invade the mainland to end the war.

    By the way JC, what is your take on Truman's decision to drop not one, but, two bombs?
     
  5. canadyjd

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    Pastor Paul, I understand your frustration. I have to say, however, that you seem to be making your kingdom on earth rather than your kingdom in heaven.

    Christians should be appalled at torture, no matter who does it.
    And let's not forget that the only thing that matters is how we live our lives for our Lord, Jesus Christ.

    For-crying-out-loud, we are Christians. And we are suppose to imitate the love and perfect patience of our Lord Jesus Christ. How sad to argue over whether our brand of torture is more humane than a Moslem's brand of torture.
    Only Almighty God is sitting on a throne that matters.
    So do I. And, as for me, I want them to know that I'd rather they not torture people to "keep me safe". It demeans them and it demeans us all.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  6. JustChristian

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    Do you really believe that we could be overtaken by a foreign power? I suppose if we are as inept as out defenses on 9/11 indicated that might be possible. With an hour's warning we really couldn't get fighters up in the air to protect our capital? Nonsense. The danger lies withinn not in marauding hordes of Islamic warriers.
     
  7. OldRegular

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    What obama has done is far worse than anything Bush did. What obama has done will cause the death of more Americans, the death of more Muslims, the death of more people throughout the world than anything the Bush administration did.

    No one can be so stupid as obama in the release of the CIA files and the photos, which never should have been made. Therefore, we must assume that the action by obama was a deliberate action to bring destruction to this country.

    The government of Pakistan is being pressured by the Taliban. The release of the information and photos by obama may be sufficient to swing the Pakistani army to the Taliban who then wind up with nuclear weapons.

    I have said routinely in the past that obama may be the instrument of God in the judgment of this country for the slaughter of 50 million unborn children and for the general acceptance of homosexual perversion as an acceptable alternative lifestyle. The next few months should tell!
     
  8. LadyEagle

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    The islamic warriers (sleeper cells) already live here....biding their time. Wake up.

    http://abcnews.go.com/WN/story?id=3403101&page=1

    http://jfednepa.org/mark silverberg/sleeper.html

    http://www.danielpipes.org/1009/the-enemy-within-and-the-need-for-profiling

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/02/sleeper_cells_in_the_united_st.html

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43815

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/181408/page/1
     
  9. donnA

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    oh surely no those peaceful muslims.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    Bub you need to put the koo koo back in the clock.
     
  11. blackbird

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    In the late 1800's------the US Government ran the American Indians on to Reservations-------little plots of land so small you can just about spit across them----for what??? For not being able to contribute to society???? For wanting to run free in open country??

    In the late 1900's------the US Government began running Muslims into the public classroom as teachers, running the muslims into the service sector of society, into the private sector-----they sent them to school to become engineers and chemists-------and some even received crash courses in flying airplanes---not Cessina's or Piper's--------but Boeing's and Lockheed's----experts in demolitions!!!!
     
  12. rbell

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    Right....and it was Episopal farmers from Nebraska that flew cropdusters into the World Trade Center... :rolleyes:

    To quote a famous American (you), "Nonsense."
     
  13. windcatcher

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    Good post RD2!

    JC, are you saying a Christian cannot support his own government? Are you saying that every Christian who supports his government is responsible for each decision made by that government? Are you saying that you have all knowledge and power to know which is good and which is evil? or that something always falls into one category or the other? or that because God is pro-life, and not willing that any should perish.... that someone must have been mistaken when they wrote the scriptures where Saul was commanded to kill all the enemy and destroy all which the enemy possessed including women and children and sheep and cattle and idols, but Saul, himself, was destroyed because he refused the order of God? who are we that we judge God..... or those who serve him as our leaders? Bush, himself, acknowledged the necessity of God in his life and his dependance on prayer and guidance in the formation of those policies he felt were difficult but necessary for the good of our nation. Now that he's gone, you judge based upon that which this current administration is willing to reveal. But, where is the evidence that this current administration either acknowledges God as the authority of its power or necessity in making decisions? Yet you feel this current administration is capable of justice in judgement about some matters to which it had no authority nor power nor privileged information when those decisions were being made?

    I think that just like the body of Christ has many members and many areas of service, in which the obediance of its individual members to God may not always be apparent to others of different callings .........so it is that many powers and actions of government may not be fully yeilding to the transparancy which we so revere when it concerns areas of security and national defense: There should be distinctions and differences between, for example, a police force vs military force. There is a reason for the scripture which says something to the effect that the right hand should not tell the left hand what it is doing. (Sorry, but I may not have this quite right.... but I think I have enough that you should get the idea.)

    JC, if you have all knowledge then by all means, inform us! Personally, I admit that I don't and I will admit that I know of no human who does! For example, just because I don't believe the war in Iraq was justified..... this is based more on 20-20 hindsight rather than what information and opinions by experts leading up to and supporting or recommending the war at the time. Therefore I supported it, and I continue to support the obilgations and responsibilities which I believe were created as the consequence of our involvement. Just because a certain President was leader at that time does not prevent a shared responsibility by all, including those of the previous administration who have privileged and confidential information but who either voiced open support of the war or kept silent and did not present an open opposition or facts to withstand the support. And should we ever face war within our own country, as was faced in the revolution, or the civil war, or the US-Mexican war, we will face life and death decisions upon which the survival of our country and our families depend, which have more to do with survival of good against evil, not necessarily with clear distinction between those who are deserving of death or innocents caught up in the cross fire or appearance of friend vs enemy. As non-soldiers, we can either think through and have understanding and compassion for those who stand to protect us in the military and in the intelligence gathering community, or we can oppose them AND our own welfare by keeping a stiff neck and failure to recognize that only God knows the end from the beginning and has the power and ability to judge right from wrong in the context of his will and purpose...... and our judgement will fail in everything except it becomes our own.

    I think Obama has broken the trust of security in releasing these memos... and more especially so by releasing and publishing only that information which is detrimental and supports the anger and criticisms of our enemies and the distrust of our friends. Particularly, he has lied when he at first implies that information released will not be used to prosecute those who carried out commands, but now appears to be supportive of whatever prosecution the justice department chooses to bear upon those who formulated or passed on policy.

    The O kid is not leading us to strength but to destruction..... and that with a smile on his face which laughs in the face of America's middle class impoverishment, and basks in his glory of being embraced by the sovereign's of the UK, but bows before those of Mecca's representative rule.
     
    #13 windcatcher, Apr 25, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2009
  14. just-want-peace

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    Emphasis mine

    JC, this is one of the few statements that you've made that I agree with.

    'Course this has been going on for some time now ( since FDR at least), and now the present pOTUS is accelerating this demise at warp speed!

    I am truly amazed and pleased that you have acknowledged the short-coming of the "0"; totally unexpected from you, but congrats!:thumbs:
     
  15. windcatcher

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    This seems like an indictment of both the country and the Christian community by your statement: "I would hope America doesn't ever cross it again." Where do you get the idea that Christian's beleive anything is acceptible in war? That Christians are among the citizens who support our military? Is this why you single Christians our? Do you think it is only Christians who support war? Are you a Christian........ and if you are as you say you are..... then where do you include yourself in this, your judgement and identification of Christians?

    I think the OP is talking about the distinct morality and restraint and differences as to how torture and war is from two viewpoints. The US viewpoint is based upon a morality of restraint even when engaging with the enemy.

    Though some may make stupid statements like 'kill 'em all and let God sort it out", common sense should tell you (as well as comprehension of the OP which did not make this statement) that this is not a Christian viewpoint but a human and carnal viewpoint expressed by a few in the heat of their anger and frustration. JC, one should be careful when ascribing every opinion stated by a Christian as being "Christian": Even Jesus rebuked Peter on some occassions for speaking for the devil, yet praised him on other occassions because Peter's confession was not based upon flesh and blood but by revelation of the holy spirit. The same mouth belonging to Peter was both a tool of the devil in one instance but a tool of the holy spirit in another, and Jesus made a distinction and did not ever ascribe to God or the characterization of his name those acts which he knew did not come from God.

    As the OP indicates, there is a distinct difference which is not highly published and which JC ommits in his indictment regarding Christians, which shows in the differences of war and 'torture' between the US military actions and those of enemies. Our military conducts its operations with restraint. It attempts to honor life and the lives of innocents or civilians. If someone is injured as the result of war, then we treat them, whether friend or foe with medical emergency aid. If someone is caught alive, they may be imprisoned for being a enemy or terrorist combatant, but they are fed and given water and presented with hygienic and medical services as necessary, in regard for the sanctity of their lives.... based upon our own moral conviction that man is made in the image of God and life comes from God and it is morally pleasing and glorifying to God when we protect the lives of those who are no longer in a threatening position.

    We base our conduct with those who are not of our religion or national heritage based upon of code of morality vs immorality as upheld in our own society as well as supported by Bible based beliefs: Therefore our soldiers do not have permission to rape or torture women and children. They are held criminally accountable to charges against them, even if it involved known enemy combattants.

    The tortures, so called, as far as I'm given to know, appear to be inflictions of discomforts or fear: While I as a civilian, with only civilian understanding, would not approve.... nevertheless, my judgement and opinion is based upon my own experiences in a stable and peaceful life, with very low treshholds of what constitutes abuse based upon my training and work as a psychiactric technician in a rehab hospital: By 'threshhold' I mean the standard is rather low... in what is acceptible in relationship between patient and caregiver regarding what is judged as abuse: As a caregiver, I might have to take feces being tossed my way or spitting in my face without retailation of any kind, and lots of foul language and epitaths. However, was I being abused or was this their illness expressing itself? On the other hand, I could not so much as touch or restrain a patient without cause: Even the doctor's could not so much as write a prescription for a tranquiler or sleep medication without justifying the necessity for giving a chemical restraint. No incompetent patient could be medicated without first informing and getting consent of his guardian. A competent patient could refuse treatment at any time. The abuse I heard about between parents and children or a between husbands and wives or caregivers and invalids... all stand with various levels of what is socially acceptible within the range of normal human behavior and which constitutes abuse..... but there are no boundaries so clearly established that gives one any certainty that 'a little abuse' is permitted.

    What I am trying to say is that in each of us are our own impressions and opinions based upon our own experiences in life and/or our perceptions when we try to imagine our selves in the roles of victim vs perp. I remember once working with a nurse trying to give an elderly patient a shower and she was highly combative as we tried to undress her. Our medical director/doctor walked in and told us to turn on the cold water, which we did. As we got wet and shivered, the highly agitated lady calmed down, and we were then able to adjust the shower to warnth and complete her bath. The fecal matter with which she had matted herself in more of a behavioral rebellion instead of the process of her own psychosis, had necessitated the shower! Was this abuse? Was this torture? It definately was discomfort! Did she do it again? Never with the present staff... though she might attempt it with others less familiar to her.

    If it is true that our own military is subjected to these techniques in the course of their own training, then it seems to me that the threshold which as civilians should consider as torture under our civil society.... is as it should be, a higher standard than that which is acceptible in a situation regarding combatants or interrogations where there is every reason to suspect a person is withholding vital information which is necessary for the protection of security and lives. I consider tasers as being in the area of considering them torture in certain instances.... yet our police often get tasered in the course of their training, and I don't doubt but what tasers have saved some lives though it may be true that they have also caused some innocent deaths.

    Islamic soldiers, as already noted in the OP, do not have the moral restraints that our own military or intelligence agencies are subjected to. They don't have moral restraints concerning their own people! Parents kill their children for disobediance! Soldiesr rape innocents, or women who are considered to be out of place or proper escort. A wounded enemy doesn't get medical treatment or comfort and life in a prison. Beheadings are done with openness and applaud to inforce control of both friend and foe through fear. When they kill man, it is considered to be obediance to God, not an act against his creator.

    JC, if your going to condem anyone, condem the enemy who is the enemy of Christians and your Christ, unless you be disposessed of his spirit..... in which case, by all means identify your true allegiance and cease from your attempts to stand with the Christian community while you vitolize those simply because you differ in your opinion.
     
  16. canadyjd

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    I don't have permission to speak for JustChristian, but suspect he was responding to Pastor Paul, who said:
    JustChristian referred to Pastor Paul, not all Christians.
    It is against posting rules to question the salvation of another member.
    Waterboarding is more than discomfort or fear. Phyically striking someone is more than discomfort or fear.
    Perhaps we shouldn't base our opinions on our own experiences, but on the Word of God.
    I can only say you are repeating propoganda that is common in any war. When our soldiers were captured by Iraqi soldiers, they were given medical treatment and the women soldiers were not raped. The radical terrorists, of course, are a different story. So, please don't paint with a very broad brush and say that "Islamic soldiers" are immoral and rapists and such.


    This is the second time in your post that you questioned the salvation of JustChristian. It is against posting rules and you should be ashamed of yourself and reprimanded.

    I encourage you to publicly apologize to JustChristian before someone reports you to the moderators.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  17. JustChristian

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    Truman saved lives by dropping the atom bomb on Japan. That caused the Japanese to surrender without the need for a bloody American invasion of Japan. I support that decision. I do not support the Iraq war, PERIOD. It was unnecessary and unjust.
     
  18. righteousdude2

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    You Madam, Have NO Understanding of My Frustration!

    I appreciate your kind words and feedback on my OP, HOWEVER, but, until are faced with the possibility of having to kill another person to assure you live another day on this planet, you can't say what you'd do. As far as I'm concerned, I could care less about the "so called Kingdom on earth" theory." I am only concerned with the Kingdom that is slated to come. I believe in the Lord's prayer, Jesus taught us to pray: "...thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

    There is no way that the church was called to change the kingdoms of this earth, and that includes our very own Kingdom. If that was true, than Peter would not have been rebuked for taking a sword and cutting off the ear of a soldier. Jesus taught his followers that the Kingdom to come is what we should be living for. If Jesus had wanted to establish His Kingdom on earth right then, He could have called down a legion of angels and wiped out Rome. But, as the Apostle Paul writes, there is no amount of spiritual power that can change the evil of the kingdom that rules this earth. We are in a supernatural battle, against a supernatural foe, and our only hope of getting by each day, is with the assistance of His Word and the power of the Holy Ghost within us. We live, and will die, for the Kingdom that will one day come!

    My OP addressed the fact that while believers may be thoroughly disgusted with the tools of warfare used to keep the status-quo going forward, than there will be things done that would turn us off. That is why it is best to not know what is going on at the front lines of the war. Even our politicians need to know as little as possible. Political involvement kept us from winning the war in Viet Nam.

    Unless you are there, on the front-lines, you will never be able to understand the dynamics of war, and the methods a man or woman is capable of using/doing to win a war, or just stay alive. There is no room for politically correct rules in warfare. Civility toward the guy that wants to kill you is not an acceptable option. To combine political correctness and civility toward the enemy would mean instant defeat for that nation's military.

    I've been there. I went through Viet Nam warfare training at Fort Ord, CA where we conducted "the ultimate order." It was termed "search-and-destroy." In a search-and-destroy, we were sent into the village with the specific instruction to kill every living thing; no questions asked.

    That directive was used until the news wires followed a unit led by a first Lt. Calley into Mỹ Lai, where that group of soldiers followed the prime directive and killed upward of 500 men, women, and children, of all ages. The incident is now referred to as the Mỹ Lai Massacre. When the press wrote about this mission and sent the photos, the world was "out-raged." Lt. William Calley was thrown under the bus and sentenced to life in prison. He was released after 3 years. It was ugly incident, but, it was a act of war practiced until the public found out about it. I still call it war, and it was no different than what the Viet Cong were doing to South Viet Nam villagers throughout the war. America may not like this, but, unless we are willing to fight the enemy on their terms, we will lose.

    As a Christian, I didn't agree with the tactic of "search-and-destroy." Fortunately, for me, and I thank God for this development, I was never deployed to Nam. Had I been deployed, I'm sure I would have had to do many things that were directly OPPOSED to my Christian values. Again, it was kill-or-be-killed, and no one knows what they would do until they are face-to-face with the prospect of living another day, or the other guy killing you.

    If the good people of this country knew half of what our government does in the name of maintaining peace around the world, and protecting this nations' freedom, I'm sure we'd ALL be shocked and thoroughly out-raged. That is why some things are better left unknown.

    Things were done in Gitmo, and half-way around the world in Iraq that would go against what we believe is being civil toward one-another. But, until you are there, you can't say what you'd do, because the prospect of a bullet ripping through your flesh, and ending your life, changes your politically correct stance pretty darn quick.

    Sorry, but, I can't fault the government for what they are doing to keep terrorists from doing something else on American soil. It is far much better for me and my family if the military keeps the fighting over there and not in my back yard. I'd love to be at peace, but, these folks want you and I dead. So, my hats' off to the government and military for making the rough decisions they make to keep blood from being shed on our soil.

    You wouldn't like it if the war came to your city, your neighborhood, or, your backyard. Trust me on this. You'd really hate it if you were faced with terrorists breaking in your front door and holding a large knife to the neck of your loved ones, or children.

    Thank God for those warriors who fight to keep America free. Personally, I don't like the bad-mouthing by some Americans towards our military and government in regard to this war of terror, but, there are soldiers who died for the freedom of these "peace-niks" to speak negative against the government.

    Pastor Paul
    Remove the Haze Ministries
    Prodigal Daze and
    Thorn Daze
     
  19. LadyEagle

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    Exactly. It's easy to sit around far removed from danger and ruminate righteous indigation.
     
  20. LeBuick

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    I hate to point this out RD because I know you mean well but this argument is like saying I only steal candy but never cars or diamonds. All of it is wrong and against out principles. We don't need to lower ourselves to their level. We are a world leader and should set the example.
     

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