The doctrine of biblical repentance

I'm going to address the 'summary' of Dr. Ernest Reisinger that was given by ReformedBaptist, to support his views. FTR, Dr. Reisinger identifies these as "errors", not summary points, in the article on the journal site from whence the 'quote' happen to have been lifted, without giving any due credit.

http://www.founders.org/journal/fj14/article3.html

I do not think it is particularly accurate. I happen to personally know two of the three individuals mentioned in this quote, and have conversed with the third, at length more than once, over the phone previously, at the cost of a considerable chunk of change", personally, since I paid for all the somewhat lengthy calls, besides having some things he has written, that touch on the subject, so I will offer a short concise comment on each point made, from where I stand, and what I teach, anyway. I am not endorsing everything any of the three may have said, by any stretch. And I will ignore the pejorative identification of this as "Non-Lordship," for now.

"Non-Lordship" is a complete misrepresentation of what I believe. Where I stand is accurately described as one who is an "Non-Lordship salvation" adherent, a huge difference!

Ed

 

Yes, I was referring to sin but I didn't use the term "sin" because many unbelievers do not understand its import. They may intellectually grasp it - if that - but until you know the holiness of God it does not mean much. This was my situation - I did not even believe in sin as a New Ager. Yet the Lord intervened in my life over a period of several months, gradually leading me to give astrology up (all I knew was that God didn't like it - this was an "impression" I had), which was a big deal, believe me, since I considered it my life's calling, I taught astrology, had clients, wrote for magazines, was involved in an astrol. society, etc. I did not think of astrology as "sin." But right before I turned over my life to Christ (I was saved while reading God's word), I realized I had been on a wrong path and was going against God. That is what I understood. I realized Christ was the Savior and I needed him. I did not think, "I've been sinning."

I think understanding at salvation can be very minimal. After all, young children can be saved as young as 5 and 6. Some adult unbelievers are in a similar state as far as understanding things.

It took me over a year and a half to have a beginning realization of what evil was and to understand how evil astrology and the other things I was into were. It's taken me a number of years since to realize it more fully, and I am still realizing it more and more each year. The more one knows Christ, the more evil sin becomes. We can't expect unbelievers - especially if they don't have a Christian background or understanding - to have the understanding of sin a Christian has. They can know it's against God or that God abhors it and that counts, imo.

PS I have seen this in my ministry as well with New Agers and others like that.

 

I think this is well put. I agree. This is how it seems it happened with me.

 

Luk 7:47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven--for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little."

 

Wow, you too? I was not into psychedilics or earth worship but had clients and friends who were Pagan and Wiccan. I was very much into Zen Buddhism and also had the Tarot cards, among other things. I practiced forms of Eastern meditation for about 15 years, and I had a spirit guide.

Glad you relate to what I said, ReformedBaptist! :wavey:

 

So true! I love this account in the Gospels! :jesus:

 

As do I!:godisgood:

 

Unfortunately, the answer to this question is yes.

'Repent' in the NT in the usual occurrence, properly means "to think afterwards (or differently)" or to change one's mind or thinking - the Greek word "metanoeO." This happens to be an "outward looking verb", by the way, which is why Scripture sometimes uses the words of direction, such as "repent of this...", etc. And it is always the word rendered as 'repent' where repent is used in association with salvation.

"Repentance" in every instance in the NT, is properly defined as that "change of mind", the noun form of that same word, "metanoia"

In six occurances of repent, in the NT, there is another word used, which properly means "to care afterwards (or differently)" or to change one's emotions, as it were, or "to change one's feelings" - the Greek word "metamellomai." It is also properly a 'reflexive' verb, which refers back to the 'originator' of this emotion. It is the word used concerning Judas, where it is said that "Judas repented himself...", or as rendered in the NKJV, Judas regretted what he had done.

And there is a third word rendered in some versions as a form of 'repent/repentance' in two places, Rom. 11:29 and II Cor. 7:10 - the Greek word ametameletos, which is an adjective, and properly carries the force of irrevocable, with the "a" in the beginning of the word conveying a negative. The gifts and callings of God are irrevocable; likewise salvation is irrevocable, in the two instances, here.

The lone OT word properly rendered as repent is the Hebrew word "shuwb", properly to be eased or to "breathe a sigh of relief', as we might put it. It actually falls somewhat between the two Greek words in the force it carries, but is closer to the second, "metamellomai". When a quote is brought from the OT into the NT, "shuwb" is rendered as "metamellomai". (Ps. 110:4 & Heb. 7:21) and incidentally, the NKJV does an excellent job in the rendering of "shuwb" as "relent", where the subject is God, hence differentiating between 'relent' where it applies to God, and 'repent' where it applies to man. At least, IMO.

I realize this has been a rather long 'intro' but I laid the groundwork so as to differentiate among uses of "repent' in the English language. In answer to your question you asked, at the close of your post, I repeat, "Yes!"

An unbeliever can repent and not trust Christ. Judas did.
One could repent, and decide to bwecime a Buddhist, or a Muslim, oir who knows what.
And one can repent who is already a believer, hence one who has already trusted Christ and hence, posesses salvation already.

So I would fully agree that one cannot trust Christ, and not repent.

However, one can repent and not trust Christ.

Hope that helps.

Ed

 

I am aware that you were not writing to me personally, and in fact, did not even consider that you were. My points were that I believe Dr. Reisinger is completely misrepresenting what he (and you) inaccurately label with the pejorative "non-lordship" label, and which I objected to, in this thread, earlier today.

Second, I know of no one who holds to this "caricatured positon" as offered by Dr. Reisinger. And, FTR, I do personally know some of the individuals whose names have popped up.

Again, as I stated earlier, recently on another thread, if there has been any change of distancing with anyone, it is because they have moved, and not I, for I have effectively been standing in the same place for nearly 40 years, concerning this subject.

Mebbe' I should also write a book, and I can then find out from others, where I actually stand.

Or maybe I should write twenty books, and then no one can 'prove' with any certainty, exactly where I stand.

Ed

 

Let's cut to the chase...

I have been running into the Lordship controversy off and on for over 30 years now. Sometimes I think it's a matter of semantics. At other times I see it as a reaction to the phenomenon of a professing Christian whose life is as bad, or worse, than that of most non-Christians, but who thinks he/she is saved because at the age of 6 they walked down the aisle of the church and prayed with the Pastor and "asked Jesus into his heart."

If this has been done before, please forgive me and point me to the thread where it was done. But here's what I propose:

Let's say I'm a Roman Catholic (I was, in fact). I approach you and say, "I've listened to you and some of your friends when you talk about religion. You seem to believe that you will definitely go to heaven when you die...that you are already 'saved.' What do I need to do if I want to be saved?"

If you believe in "Lordship Salvation" (or what is often so termed), how would you answer me?

If you DON'T believe in "Lordship Salvation," how would you answer me?

 

You have a very cool testimony, RB :thumbs:

 

Frankly, I suggest that Dr. Reisinger has 'cherry-picked' statements by individuals that he disagrees with, when filtered through the lens of his own theological biases, and then reworded them to emphasize this, as representative of what all non-Lordship salvationists believe, which is simply not accurate.

The Holy Spirit already beat me to writing this 'creed,' completing His version over 1900 years ago. Here is an example of the long version, and what it looks like, translated into English. I suggest any attempts to 'reduce' that length are misguided, at best.



Ed

 

That's how I would answer you, with this Biblical answer to an already asked Biblical question. I would not attempt to teach any 'Systematics' course, to answer a simple question, at least at this stage in the conversation.

I would expand on this, based on how you responded to this, but I would have no way of forseeing what that would be, in advance.

Ed

 

Ed, thanks for your very informative answer.

I guess we could say that Judas repented but it was not repentance unto salvation; it was mere regret.

 

Exactly!

You nailed it.

Ed