The Doctrine of Justification

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    This is one that you CANT mess up, and this is one that separates the true converts from the false. The doctrine of Justification or Sola Fide means God declares the sinner righteous and IMPUTES his righteousness on the sinner. This is by faith alone.

    2 Corinthians 5:21 (ESV)
    21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    Eph 2:8-10 (NIV)
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    When people cause confusion with this doctrine (NT Wright, Robert Gundry and others) it merely shows them to be departing Biblical soteriology. Yesterday a Catholic was at church and I had a brief chat with her, and she seemed to think that Catholic Theology and Christian theology were one and the same. I strongly urged her to do research on the Catholic movement and their view on Justification, but she refused and kept on insisting she was not interested. I then cautioned her in love about her eternal destiny and those that deny Justification by faith alone. I did not get time to work my way through the 10 Commandments as she was not interested, but its so sad when people are not interested at all in theology, but only care about relationships, a friendly environment, and a social gathering and they place that above Biblical theology and good teaching. Her last words affirmed that she believed in a works based gospel pointing to the book of James which is a book that gives weight to the Lordship Salvation doctrine which sadly is denied by most evangelicals. But her suggesting works was required for salvation, showed she was not saved.

    But what also troubled me is that no one had spoken to this woman in love and warned her about her eternal fate. The church does not seem to care about these doctrines, or at least never explains them, so people remain in the dark. This is yet one reason why I can't join this church.

    For more details on this doctrine check out these books.

    Counted Righteous in Christ: Should We Abandon the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness?

    The God Who Justifies
     
    #1 evangelist6589, Jan 23, 2014
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  2. Greektim

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    I like how you mess up at the very beginning after saying you can't mess it up. Justification is not Sola Fide. And Wright et al believes that justification is by faith. You are just disagreeing w/ his concept or definition of justification. I have yet to meet a Wright-hater who can accurately outline his views. I also thought it was funny that you used a RCC illustration of justification. This is the very thing he goes against. For Wright, the idea of justification is born out of a reformation and protestant mindset against the RCC rather than a 1st century Palestinian view.

    Also, are you calling my salvation into question if I told you that I was convinced by Wright's views of justification?
     
  3. agedman

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    Again, this post is gently offered and trust the Holy Spirit to bring you into wisdom.

    Seem that you are placing "work(ing) though the 10 commandments" as somes indication that some system of presentation must be done to bring Godly conviction and condemnation.

    I suggest that the job of the Holy Spirit is to bring conviction, judgment and righteousness; that merely the Word of God - by presenting the good news that Christ provides the reconciliation between God and man - is as good as the decalogue.

    James is very specific that without works, faith is dead. What a great place to start in showing the contrast between a dead faith that relies upon works, and a living faith that results in works.

    That the woman even was familiar with James (assuming the lost estate) is remarkable.
     
  4. quantumfaith

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    Was with you until you went off the tracks here. Guess I can mess that up too. Oh well.
     
  5. quantumfaith

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    GT....not to worry, I am sure it is in a book somewhere. (Said with the most gentle of tones)
     
  6. Van

    Van
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    Justified by Faith

    Almost all Christians would claim to believe we were justified by faith, and perhaps quote Romans 3:28, which says we are justified by faith and not by the works of the Law.
    If pressed, many Christians would define “works of the law” as the actions we take to conform to the requirements of the Law, rather than what the “law” actually accomplishes, which is to make us aware of our sin and lead us to Christ.

    So lets back up and ask the question, justified by whose faith? Does our faith justify us? If we took a poll, would not a large group, perhaps even a majority, say our faith justifies us? But that would be a works based salvation would it not. Ah but you say faith is not a work.

    Maybe we should back up again and consider “justified by whom?” Were we justified by what we did or by what Christ did on the cross? The free gift of justification to life was provided by Christ on the cross, Romans 5:18. So it was Christ’s faithfulness, even unto death on the cross, which provided the propitiation for the whole world. So then the question becomes, how did we “receive” that gift or have that gift applied to us individually?

    So it would seem, then that our faith in Christ provides access to Christ’s free gift of justification by the grace of God. But does that too miss the mark? I think so. Would not our faith in effect “save us” then and make us the actual architect of our salvation?

    So if our placing our faith in Christ does not automatically save us, then God must credit our faith as righteousness and spiritually place us “in Christ” which saves us because in Christ we receive the justification to life provided by Christ. Wow now that is a systematic theology that fits with all scripture.
     
  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    So-called "reformed" get it wrong again. As usual. You speak of "justification" as though it is interchangeable with sanctification. They aren't even the same thing, so how can they be interchangeable?

    Paul stated what justification is exactly and no man's opinion is going to change the God-inspired definition the apostle put in black and white.
    Romans 3, (NASB)
    21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
    25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
    26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. ​
    There you have it. Unequivocal, straight from God Himself. Justification -- translated from the Greek dikaios meaning "declare righteous" -- occurs at the instant of faith, and like salvation is one time given but lifetime and beyond experienced. Justification is not sanctification, however.
    1 Corinthians 1
    30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
    31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD." ​
    Sanctification is the Greek hagios meaning "set apart" for God, made holy. It, too, is instantaneous at the moment of faith, but Jesus Himself, Paul, and the writer of Hebrews all make it clear sanctification is also progressive in nature.
    John 17
    18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
    19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth."

    1 Peter 1
    14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
    15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
    16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

    Hebrews 12
    14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.​
    And finally, Paul states unequivocally that the ultimate sanctification takes place at the coming of our Lord Christ.
    1 Thessalonians 5
    23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​
    They aren't the same thing. Stop trying to make the same thing. Pick up a Bible and learn. By the way, Reformed theology does not embrace this confusion of justification and sanctification. That's a mistake made by modern so-called "reformed."
     
    #7 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 23, 2014
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  8. evangelist6589

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    You are right Justification is not Sola Fide as that means FAITH ALONE, as Justification is an act of God. However Sola Fide is mentioned in works on Justification.

    Wright hater? No Wright discerner as I do not know the man.

    Check out these links on NT Wright folks.

    http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/whats-wrong-wright-examining-new-perspective-paul/

    A story from someone about NT Wright.

    http://apprising.org/2012/12/04/wha...stification-and-the-new-perspectives-on-paul/

    http://www.erictyoung.com/2010/10/3...proul-and-tabletalk-debunk-n-t-wrights-n-p-p/

    http://onceuponacross.blogspot.com/2010/02/why-nt-wright-is-wrong.html
     
  9. evangelist6589

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    Do you ever contribute anything good to a thread? You think the BB is Facebook and try and do your like posts like this is FB. Lots of people on FB do not think theologically, and lots of people in Andy Stanley's churches have the same problem. This is why I am not attracted to those kinds of people. You boast and think high of Andy Stanley. I tell you what I will listen to a Andy Sermon if you will listen to a Washer, Comfort, or Mac sermon. A deal?
     
  10. evangelist6589

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    Excuse me?? I know exactly what Sanctification means and you are correct works and the process of being separated from sin and unto Holiness is not required to enter heaven. However how can one say they have faith and not works, can such faith save him? (James 2:14). Even the devils have faith, but the wrong faith.

    The POINT is this. Nothing we can do can earn salvation, as that comes from God alone whom called his elect, whom will respond to the call and are Justified. HOWEVER, those that are fully saved will have works following their salvation or they may be a false convert.
     
  11. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    The issue becomes the validity of attempting to judge whether one has "works" indicative of faith or not. If one claims to be able to pinpoint a "false convert" by his/her "lack of works," one is deluding him/herself. That requires looking into the heart, which God in His infinite wisdom has reserved solely to Himself.

    The person who would confess the basic biblical doctrines of Christianity such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, his physical resurrection, justification by grace of faith, etc., is affirming the necessary elements that must be held by faith to be Christian. The only person we can affirmatively say is not saved is the person who denies that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead physically, or denies justification by grace and faith in Christ alone, and other such essential Christian doctrines and refuses to affirm biblical truth even after proper teaching.

    A person’s actions need to be examined to see if they're consistent with his/her profession. John's first epistle confirms that.
    1 John 2, (NASB)
    4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
    5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
    6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. ​
    If someone professes to be a Christian and yet behaves in a manner contrary to that profession, then we would naturally doubt his salvation. But we must be very careful not to be too judgmental too quickly. It is a serious thing to say that someone is or is not saved. If you are unsure about the salvation of someone, then you should pray for that person, ask God to work in a person's life, and ask the Lord to give you wisdom. But do not claim to have special knowledge that such a person does not know Christ or have the Holy Spirit of God living in him/her. It is the height of arrogance to claim discernment of that superior level.
    Why are you worried about who is a false convert? That is Jesus' venue, and if your view of Reformed theology is correct -- it isn't, in my opinion, but for argument's sake -- then your "discernment" or opinion is worthless. Either he/she is elect or he/she is not, and whichever it is stands as the determining factor of his/her eternal fate. Your worry, and perhaps accompanying prayer, changes nothing.

    I on the other hand will hear their words of affirmation of those essential doctrines, but upon viewing their actions and believing perhaps they do not have a full grasp of the gospel, will pray for them with the absolute belief that the Father in heaven will hear, and provide me or someone else with opportunities to disciple them and help them understand they are not living up to their potential in the sanctification of Christ.

    Honestly, which of these scenarios would you rather be part of?
     
    #11 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 23, 2014
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  12. Greektim

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    You need to read him for yourself. You are pathetic... you always go to other people. You never form your own opinions. Your views are weak b/c they are not yours. You can't own your view against Wright b/c you don't know his view. You've not read him. So sad.
     
  13. quantumfaith

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    Precisely the type of response I expected. Nothing I contribute will ever be considered worthwhile by yourself. How old are you EVANG?
     
  14. evangelist6589

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    Did I personally attack you? Why do it to me? I never once called you any names so why do you attack me? I only attacked your arguments. Also it would seem you cannot form your own opinions but must have NT Wright form them for you. But I tell you what Greektim I tell you what I am gonna do and that is read one of his books. Please mention one book by him (not New perspectives related) perhaps a book on Christ, or one of the gospels and I will read him.
     
    #14 evangelist6589, Jan 23, 2014
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  15. quantumfaith

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    Are you not mature or insightful enough to recognize that GT in no way "attacked" you , but rather challenged you. Challenged you to look outside of your rather narrow parameters. Recognizing such, could be a great first start for you.
     
  16. evangelist6589

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    You are one to talk. Why don't you look beyond Andy Stanley?
     
    #16 evangelist6589, Jan 23, 2014
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  17. evangelist6589

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    Did you not read my post?????? I asked for a book recommendation.
     
  18. JamesL

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    I know you were specifically asking for something not related to the New Perspective, but I really think you should read this page. It's pretty short, and straight to the point. It is from Wright himself, clarifying some of what his perspective is and isn't

    http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_New_Perspectives.htm


    I am not saying that I agree or disagree, just saying that information is best received first-hand.

    Then, you can agree or disagree with what he actually said, instead of what someone else thinks he meant
     
  19. Greektim

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    I was quite crass in my post. I apologize and ask your forgiveness. It just frustrates me to no end that people who criticize him and his view have read very little of him but only what others say about him. That is not genuine. But my tone and etiquette was unacceptable. Sorry.

    A book that I rather enjoyed about Jesus was How God Became King. It is more popular level and a good read. If you want a condensed version of that in a video lecture, Calvin College hosted him and posted it online here: http://www.calvin.edu/january/2012/NTWright.htm
     
  20. Van

    Van
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    In the 1950"s I drove cars with "Dynaflow" or "Hydramatic" transmissions. Here we have the "Faithomatic" transmission turning the unjustified into the justified "automatically." The little step of being saved by grace is left out. Faith provides access to the grace in which we stand. How does that work? Not automatically, but it is God who either credits our faith as righteousness or not, and if He does, then He sets the person apart in Christ, where they undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, justified through the removal of our sin burden.
     

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