The Doctrine of Total Depravity contradicts SCRIPTURE

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Feb 11, 2004.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvinism's doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that men are born unable to see, hear, understand and believe the gospel.

    The doctrine of "hardening" teaches that men are able to see, hear, understand and believe until they have become hardened. (e.g. Acts 28; John 12)

    This is why the Bible warns us not to allow our hearts to grow hardened (Heb. 3). We are not born hardened, as Total Depravity presumes. One becomes hardened only after hearing, seeing, understanding and rejecting the truth.

    At times God sealed men in that hardened state in order to accomplish a purpose through them, like Pharoah, which Paul compares to the hardening of the Jews in Romans 9.

    What say ye?
     
  2. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's not Total Depravity. Total Depravity is the inability of humans to do anything perfect in accordance with God's plan.

    If Total Depravity were to be defined as you state, then you'd be right to say it's not scriptural.
     
  3. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's not Total Depravity. Total Depravity is the inability of humans to do anything perfect in accordance with God's plan.

    If Total Depravity were to be defined as you state, then you'd be right to say it's not scriptural.
    </font>[/QUOTE]No Johnv, Skandelon's description of total depravity is correct; we are DEAD in our trespasses and sins! Dead means Dead! I, Michael of Hamtramck Michigan present myself to you all as living PROOF of Total Depravity! All of my righteousness is as filthy rags! [​IMG]
     
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's not Total Depravity. Total Depravity is the inability of humans to do anything perfect in accordance with God's plan.

    If Total Depravity were to be defined as you state, then you'd be right to say it's not scriptural.
    </font>[/QUOTE]So, you, as a Calvinist, believe man is born able to see, hear, understand and even believe the gospel message?
     
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mike, I'm interested to hear how you reconcile your views of Total Depravity with the scripture's teaching of Hardening. Are we born hardened, or do we become that way only after hearing, seeing, understanding and refusing to believe?
     
  6. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mike, I'm interested to hear how you reconcile your views of Total Depravity with the scripture's teaching of Hardening. Are we born hardened, or do we become that way only after hearing, seeing, understanding and refusing to believe? </font>[/QUOTE]Give me the specific Scripture passages you wish to discuss Skandelon, and we can go from there but I will start with this: You ask "Are we born hardened, or do we become that way only after hearing, seeing, understanding and refusing to believe?" The short answer is, we are BORN hardened; hence the reason for a New Birth. If we are NOT born hardened then we should simply be able to simply get the Gospel to young children all over the world to believe on Jesus Christ, even in our own household! But as you well know, rarely does it ever really work out that way! [​IMG]
     
  7. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's not Total Depravity. Total Depravity is the inability of humans to do anything perfect in accordance with God's plan.

    If Total Depravity were to be defined as you state, then you'd be right to say it's not scriptural.
    </font>[/QUOTE]How can any one do what they do not know exists? Are we born with the Plan of God in our brain?

    When did you first KNOW of God's plan? Probably in your late teens or early twenties.

    That is why Total Depravity is a bogus, strawman, false doctrine!
     
  8. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's not Total Depravity. Total Depravity is the inability of humans to do anything perfect in accordance with God's plan.

    If Total Depravity were to be defined as you state, then you'd be right to say it's not scriptural.
    </font>[/QUOTE]How can any one do what they do not know exists? Are we born with the Plan of God in our brain?

    When did you first KNOW of God's plan? Probably in your late teens or early twenties.

    That is why Total Depravity is a bogus, strawman, false doctrine!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew2, I humbly submit to you that I am having a bit of trouble following your line of thought here.
    Will you clarify for a brother? Have patience with me throughout this discourse.
     
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, lets start with Acts 28:

    Notice the word "otherwise" in this text. It is showing that the hardened nature of the Jewish people is what is keeping them from hearing, seeing, understanding and believing, but notice it doesn't say they were born that way, it says they "became" that way. And it contrasts that with those who have not yet heard the Word from the Lord, the Gentiles, who have not grown hardened as the Jews. For they will listen and believe as we later see. Why? They are not being temporarily and judicially hardened by God.

    Next we can turn to John 12...

    Again this shows the Jews were being hardened, which we know from Paul's teaching in Romans 9-11 that this hardening is temporary and with a direct purpose, like that of Pharoahs hardening.

    There are other texts. For example, passages that speak of hiding the message from Jews in parables. Why hide something from people who are born unable to understand it?

    This is an experiential based argument not a scriptural one. Actually the children in my household did simply believe the gospel when I taught it to them and I have had much success is sharing the gospel with children. They are suprisingly receptive and willing to listen. Why? They haven't grown hardened. Why else would Jesus pull a child out as an example of one fit for the kingdom of Heaven? If a child is born as hardened as an adult becomes then why would he use a child as an example of the way we should become? There must be something different in the nature of a child, don't you think?
     
  10. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a Prophet speaking by the Holy Spirit what WOULD BE as to this situation! This is NOT God complaining that His people would not hear Him; this is God Proclaiming that His people would not hear Him! God NEVER COMPLAINS! :eek:
     
  11. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    As to your children believing the Gospel by your tender loving fatherly hand, may God ever bless you and your whole house for you being such a great father to them! [​IMG] [​IMG] Give God all the Glory! Amen!!
     
  12. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    As to the question of why God does things can anybody answer me as to why God took David and Bathsheba's babys life? What did the baby do?

    God does what He will do, when He will do it!
    He need give NO REASONS for His actions!
    That is enough for me!
     
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think you missed my point. I didn't say this was God complaining. God hardened them because of their continued rebellion. My point was that they weren't born this way, they become hardened after their rebellion, not from birth as you presume.
     
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    No one is disputing this. We all agree that God can do anything He wishes to do. The debate is over what God has done and will do based upon what he has revealed to us through his word. Let's stick to that if you don't mind. Thanks
     
  15. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    No one is disputing this. We all agree that God can do anything He wishes to do. The debate is over what God has done and will do based upon what he has revealed to us through his word. Let's stick to that if you don't mind. Thanks </font>[/QUOTE]Skandelon, with all due lovingkindness, you are way too focused on the mechanics of all of this without, I am afraid, looking at the MUCH BIGGER picture our Gracious Heavenly Father Draws for us!
     
  16. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, Mike

    You say that Total Depravity is the condition of man which keeps man from doing the plan of God in his life. And you elude to that condition being part of man from birth.

    Well, when did you learn of the plan of God? Were you born with God's plan imbedded in your brain? No, not hardly, you had to learn first that there is such a plan, then you had to learn how to execute the plan, then you had to actually execute the plan.

    So when did you learn there was a "God's Plan"? How old in physical years were you? If you are typical, you learned there is such a thing as a "plan of God" in your mid to late teens or somewhere in your twenty's. So is it any wonder that you could not do the plan of God? You have to know there is one, then learn what it is then decide whether or not you are going to do it!

    Goes right along with Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

    Total depravity is a vile worthless doctrine intended to keep man suppressed in a state of worthlessness. God did not create us to be worthless. Sin caused us to be separated from God and the doctrine of "total depravity" keeps man from overcoming sin through confession and forgiveness followed by man's repentance from sin.

    Total Depravity is a doctrine from Satan himself! Man makes Satan gloat in victory because "man cannot overcome even the smallest of sins", therefore man is totally depraved, useless, unworthy of salvation!

    HOGWASH!
     
  17. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yelsew, I love you from the bottom of my heart but you do err on a fundemental point: God's Plan for my life started before the foundation of the world without regard for when I percieved of it, that is irrelevent from my standpoint! [​IMG]
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mike, with all due respect, if you don't want to deal with the issues just say so. I'm trying to engage you (or others) concerning the Calvinistic misconceptions of Total Depravity as it related to what the bible clearly teaches about hardening. If you don't want to discuss that please don't clutter up this thread, I would like to deal with people who want to debate the issues. I say this with love and even a smile. [​IMG]
     
  19. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    As for the rest of your post Yelsew, well:

    The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
    14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength Proverbs 8:13-14

    10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. Proverbs 13:10

    12 For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak. Ps 59:12
     
  20. Hamtramck_Mike

    Hamtramck_Mike
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mike, with all due respect, if you don't want to deal with the issues just say so. I'm trying to engage you (or others) concerning the Calvinistic misconceptions of Total Depravity as it related to what the bible clearly teaches about hardening. If you don't want to discuss that please don't clutter up this thread, I would like to deal with people who want to debate the issues. I say this with love and even a smile. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Then we will leave it at that Skandelon; I am comfortable with what I believe concerning this subject. I love you too, and will always! [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

Loading...