The Elect, Need a clear definition of....

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Wes Outwest, May 6, 2005.

  1. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can anyone provide a clear definition of "the elect"?

    Are there limitations to who the elect may or may not be?

    Are there any rules regarding "the elect"?

    Is there only one kind or category of "the elect"?
     
  2. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2000
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not sure what sort of rules you are looking for regarding the elect. I will say, evangelistic efforts are not limited by election. We are not outside of time, so we don't know the beginning and the end. We are to preach the word. . .
     
  3. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rules for the elect:

    #1- The elect are kept by Christ from being deceived.

    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    #2- The elect are a definite number that will one day be gathered.

    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    #3- The elect shall be avenged.

    Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

    #4- No one can lay a charge against God's elect.

    Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

    #5- The elect demonstrate visible signs and fruit.

    Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

    #6- The elect are foreknown and sanctified through the spirit.

    1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    #7- Election is of grace.

    Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    #8- The elect ought to know they are elect.

    1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

    #9- The elect should make sure they are elect.

    2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    Boy. that sounds a lot like the Calvinists definition of election to me.
     
  4. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do all of God's elect get saved?
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    If God knows that 10 elect people sitting in your church today will be saved "today" - does it matter what the preacher says or what they "will" on their own? Can they "will" some other thing or "argue" in favor of some other outcome? Does any work that they "do" matter?

    Is it "all of God" or does the preacher have to "show up today" to make it happen?
     
  6. Timtoolman

    Timtoolman
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,403
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob they would call that hyper calvinism. Although I have to admitt the hypers at least live what the teach.

    Calvinist will say we preach the gospel becasue we don't know who the elect are. So they are going through the motions but the results are already determind.

    I really liked your post are calvinist using the arminian alter call. That was great. I did question my pastor on that one weds night
    (bout a year ago) but got the standard "we don't know who the elect are" answer.
     
  7. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Originally posted by Timtoolman:

    Calvinist will say we preach the gospel becasue we don't know who the elect are. So they are going through the motions but the results are already determind.

    What is the great need to preach the Gospel then, since whether or not we do, the Lord is going to save the elect anyway?
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ok then if there are some of them here - perhaps they would respond as well.

    So if I were talking to one of the non-hyper Calvinists - how would they resopnd to...

    What difference does it make whether "you" know who the elect are in that other kind of Calvinism?

    Do "you" save or does God?

    Is it "all of God" and "some of you"?

    Why do you need to do anything just because "you" don't know who the elect are?

    The problem is that the answer does not address the question AND it brings up another question.

    #1. Why not use Calvinist methods to evangelize "regardless" of what you know about each soul? Why use Arminian methods if it is a false teaching??

    It would be like saying "we are practicing idolatry today because we don't know who the elect are".

    #2. What difference does it make -- whether you know what God knows? Who is doing this evangelism/salvation thing - you or "God plus you" or "God alone"?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    While I appreciate some of what's being said here, The questions in the OP still beg for answers.

    Whetstone you did an admirable attempt, but I'm not sure you post provides "a clear definition". I am not seeking to find WHO the ELECT may be. I am seeking a clear definition of the biblical usage of the term "Elect".
     
  10. RON35951

    RON35951
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Election defined Biblically:

    John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.


    John 6:44-45 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


    John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
    10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
    10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.


    John 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


    Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


    Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


    Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
    7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
    11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
    13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


    2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.


    Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


    Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


    Matthew 20:16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."


    Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    The elect are defined biblically as the individuals whom God chose to be saved through faith and the gospel from before the world began (Eph 1:4, 2 Thess 2:13). Why do we need to go farther than that for a definition?

    Don't confuse the choosing of the nation of Israel, or the choosing of apostles, or the choosing of Christ as election in the sense that election is used on the discussion about soteriology. Those are, quite clearly, different things.
     
  12. Bro. James

    Bro. James
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,643
    Likes Received:
    15
    "Confusing the choosing"--

    God chose to drag Israel(elect) out of Egypt--not because they were faithful.

    God chose to drag Israel(elect) to the promised land even after being basically rejected by them.
    Israel as a nation has rejected Jesus as Messiah. The scripture says God will bring them back.

    God chose to save some through the shed blood of Jesus--they did not choose Him--this is OT and NT.

    Man is his totally depraved condition knows not how to make the right choice.

    Does God drag the lost to Calvary? His sheep(elect) hear His voice and they follow Him. Surely it is against the carnal nature to seek after God.

    Praise God for His Grace, Mercy and Lonsuffering.


    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then,
    How do you account for the Pharaoh?
    How do you account for Hitler with his persecution of Jews?
    How do you account for Judas?
    How do you account for those God elected to use to discipline His Elect the Jews?
    How do you account for the many fishermen that did not get "elected"?
    How do you account for the many Tax Collectors that did not get "elected"?
    How do you account for King Saul?
    What about all those who perished in the flood? Surely the names of many of them were written in the book of Life, else they would not have lived.

    Were all of these not "elected" before the foundation of the world by God? Is God simply making up this "never ending story" as he goes along?

    No one can deny that the Apostles were Elect of God! Yet one of them was of the devil! Was Judas saved seeing how he was an elect of God?

    Was the Pharaoh Saved seeing how he was an elect of God?

    Is there going to be an academy awards in heaven for the way these "Elected Actors" performed? Even those who were the villains in their respective stories?

    So again I must ask, what is the biblical definition of elect? Is it different than the Webster's Dictionary? If so, please give me the biblical definition.

    Are ALL who are elected by God, Saved?
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I suspect it is because Jesus Christ commanded the Church to preach the Gospel.

    Matthew 24:14.
    Matthew 28:16-20.
    Mark 13:10.
    Mark 16:15.
    Luke 24:47.
    Acts 1:8.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Scripture and theologians frequently use the term election to indicate the Sovereign choice of God. Scripture speaks of election in three different contexts, only one of which is election unto salvation.

    1. The first context in which the Sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is the choice of Israel as a people through which the promised redeemer would come.

    Deuteronomy 7:6,7, KJV
    6. For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
    7. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:


    Such election is not associated with personal salvation as shown in the following passage.

    Romans 9:6,7, KJV
    6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.



    2. The second context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is vocational.

    God called Aaron and his descendants out of the tribe of Levi to be priests but not all were called to salvation. Jesus Christ called twelve men to be Apostles but only eleven of them were chosen to salvation.


    3. The third context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is election unto salvation: God the Father Chooses a People For His Own.

    Scripture teaches that God the Father chooses or elects those who, in Jesus Christ, will be saved. That choice or election is the role of God the Father in the Covenant of Grace. Those who are chosen in Jesus Christ will become the Saints, the ‘true believers’.

    The Apostle Paul, writing to the Saints at Ephesus, summarizes this doctrine as follows:

    Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
    3. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


    What does Scripture mean when it teaches that God has chosen us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world? We look again at the statement He chose us in Him [that is, Jesus Christ] that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.

    James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary, defines election to salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:

    “God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.

    John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 309] defines election to salvation simply as:

    “All who will finally be saved, were chosen to salvation by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, and given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace.”

    Dagg’s definition of election is greatly expanded upon in the text and presupposes an understanding of the Covenant of Grace. He does, however, show what Scripture means by the statement chose us in Him [that is, Jesus Christ]. The elect are given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace, that is they are saved only through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ as atonement for their sins.

    John I. Packer, an Anglican theologian, writes about the doctrine of election to salvation as follows [Concise Theology , page 149; see also the New Geneva Bible, page 1784]

    “The biblical doctrine of election is that before Creation God selected out of the human race, foreseen as fallen, those whom He would redeem, bring to faith, justify, and glorify in and through Jesus Christ. This divine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace, for it is unconstrained and unconditional, not merited by anything in those who are its subjects. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind, only condemnation; so it is a wonder, and a matter for endless praise, that He should choose to save any of us; and doubly so when His choice involved the giving of His own Son to suffer as sin bearer for the elect.”

    W. T. Conner, a professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary early in the 20th century writes of election to salvation as follows [Christian Doctrine , page 155]:

    “It [Election] means that God has decreed to bring certain ones, upon whom His heart has been eternally set, who are the objects of His eternal love, to faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. When a man is saved he is not saved as a matter of chance or accident or fate; he is saved in pursuance of an eternal purpose of God. God saves man because He intends to. He saves a particular man, at a particular time, under a particular set of circumstances, because He intends to.”
     
  16. RON35951

    RON35951
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    "How do you account for the Pharaoh?" quote from Wes


    Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


    "How do you account for Hitler with his persecution of Jews? " quote from Wes
    Hitler was probably not elect.


    "How do you account for Judas?" quote from Wes


    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.


    "How do you account for those God elected to use to discipline His Elect the Jews?
    How do you account for the many fishermen that did not get "elected"?
    How do you account for the many Tax Collectors that did not get "elected"?
    How do you account for King Saul?" quote from Wes


    I do not know who is elect or who is not elect, nor do I account for them.


    "What about all those who perished in the flood? Surely the names of many of them were written in the book of Life, else they would not have lived." quote from Wes

    Are you suggesting that those that God condemned were saved?

    "Were all of these not "elected" before the foundation of the world by God? Is God simply making up this "never ending story" as he goes along?" quote from Wes

    The answer to both is no.

    "No one can deny that the Apostles were Elect of God! Yet one of them was of the devil! Was Judas saved seeing how he was an elect of God?" quote from Wes

    Judas was non-elect

    John 17 :12 While I was with them in the world,I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.


    "Was the Pharaoh Saved seeing how he was an elect of God?" quote from Wes


    Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." F28 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." F29 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


    "Is there going to be an academy awards in heaven for the way these "Elected Actors" performed? Even those who were the villains in their respective stories?" quote from Wes

    Does not deserve a response.

    "So again I must ask, what is the biblical definition of elect? Is it different than the Webster's Dictionary? If so, please give me the biblical definition." quote from Wes

    See my previous post.


    "Are ALL who are elected by God, Saved?" quote from Wes

    Those who are Elect by the Biblical definition are all saved.

    Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    Wes, what more Biblical answer can I give than Scripture?
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have already given it to you twice, with the scriptural support. Your confusion stems from not understanding the theological meaning of election. In soteriology, election is God's choice of individuals to salvation from before the foundation of the world. It has nothing to do with his choice of certain people to do or be certain things.
     
  18. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    That depends entirely on who the "us" is in the quoted text of Ephesians 1. Paul is telling the Ephesians of the selection of the Apostles and the cause and effect in the establishment of the church through evangelism. In other words, God chose the twelve who would be the Apostles of Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world, or he determined that there would be 12 apostles to his Son Jesus Christ for the purpose of building the Church of Jesus Christ through Evangelism relative to who and what Jesus Christ is and was.
    Then that most assuredly means all of mankind, because the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ was a unilateral and universal atonement for the sin of the world without regard to persons. So, Dagg is simply wrong in his definition of Election, because we know that not ALL mankind will be saved because not all mankind will believe.

    J. I. PACKER is likewise wrong because in the posted quote, he included the phrase
    There is no scripture that defines the Atonement provided by the Christ as atonement for the sin of the elect! Jesus' atonement was for sin, ALL the SIN of the WORLD! Not just that sin of the elect!
     
  19. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then what was he, a "Jesus groupie" or "Roadie" as hangers-on are called in modern vernacular. How did he get to be a Follower, a close friend, an associate and Purse keeper for the Apostles if he had not been elected to be such? There is prophesy concerning Judas, so he most assuredly was an Elect of God!

    There was no prophesy about Hitler, and perhaps not even for the pharaoh, so it is not clear about their roles or the purpose of them even existing.

    What about all the fishermen that did not get elected with Peter, James, John and other fishermen were? What about other tax collectors who were not elected while Matthew was?

    Surely God would have wanted all "fishermen", as they are "gatherers", and likewise he would want no tax collectors because they add to the burden of life. He would have wanted more migrant farmworkers since they are both planters and harvesters. And he would not want "beancounters" because they serve no useful purpose.
     
  20. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, but has there ever been any that are not elect that are saved? If so, how? Isn't it God's absolute sovereignty that's at stake here?

    Has there been any elect that are not saved? if yes, how does that happen? Isn't God's absolute sovereignty at stake here too?
     

Share This Page

Loading...