The Elect --- Question 1

Archangel, if God imposes faith on you, then you are not believeing. You are no different from this computer I am using right now. It is programmed to follow my instructions. The words you see here are mine, they did not originate in the computer, although they are conveyed through the computer.

And for the life of me, I do not see how a Calvinist cannot see this. According to Calvinsim, a man is Totally Depraved or Unable to believe. Only when God regenerates you do you have this ability. You say a man then has free will, but that is not so, you teach that this grace is Irresistable, and a man will always choose for God. This makes you nothing less than a robot or a puppet. You may convince yourself that you are choosing Christ, but you are not. The real you rejects Christ by your own doctrine.

And I do not understand how any thinking person would believe God would be pleased or satisfied with this imposed faith. You are no different from this computer that simply follows my directions. I could write a screensaver that tells me all day long I am the greatest person ever. Would that mean anything? It might mean something to Calvinists, but I would not be impressed with my own adulation to myself, written by myself.

There used to be an old song called Love Potion #9

Now, you can laugh, but this is basically what you believe. You believe a man incapable of desiring God, or believeing God. But God for some unknown reason that no Calvinist can explain, elected and chose you. You just happened to get lucky. And God regenerated you, now you are born again and suddenly have the desire to seek God and the ability to believe on Christ.

It is no different from a fellow who drugs a girl on a date so that she will lose her willpower to resist and all inhibitions.

It is not much different from this fellow we recently saw in the news who kidnapped the 11 year old girl and held her captive for many years. It is known that people in these situations can be brain-washed to become emotionally attached to their kidnappers. This is known as the Stockholm Syndrome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Now, you can say what you want, but this is basically your concept of God. Without your permission, without your will, he imposes his Holy Spirit on you. You are changed without regard to your personal will to love and trust God. And you believe God is foolish enough to believe this is real love, when even unsaved man would recognize it is not. Absurd.

Now, in the world we easily recognize these actions as criminal. But Calvinists believe that when God does this it is perfectly alright, simply because he is sovereign, and can do whatsoever he pleases with us, even if that violates his attributes of holiness and being perfectly just.

 

I have had enough of you questioning my salvation:

I have had enough of you questioning the salvation of my fellow Calvinists. I have sent your post to the attention of the moderators, for it is not the first time you have questioned our salvation. You have been warned repeatedly and you either are unable or unwilling to comply.

I really wish you'd learn how to "Play nice with others." :tear:

Blessings,

The Archangel

PS. Happy Thanksgiving

 

Who questioned your salvation? I have no idea if you are saved or not. If you heard the gospel and realized you were a sinner, and if you heard and believed Jesus Christ died for your sins, and you came to Jesus in your heart for forgiveness, then you are saved.

It is the doctrines of Calvinism I disagree with. And over the months I have probably provided hundreds of scriptures that absolutely contradict it.

But whether you are saved or not, that is only for God to know.

But I do say this, if a man is regenerated to believe and choose Christ as Calvinism teaches, then that is not the man making a choice or believeing. You are simply a mechanical instrument obeying his programmed commands. I mean, Calvinists themselves call it "irresistable". If it is irresistable, then you have no free will as you claim, you are a complete slave, a puppet, a robot.

I have been called a heretic by Calvinists on this board, and a blasphemer too (Carico for one). I didn't go running to a moderator and complain. I am secure in my beliefs, doesn't upset me in the least or cause me to doubt my salvation.

And, if you are going to the moderator in an attempt to get me banned, you could at least leave out your "Blessings". I can't help but take this as completely insincere in your last post.

 

Winman,

Your lack of meaningful interaction with my points proves that you are not interested in a discussion. You just want to preach your position. Go ahead, I can't stop you. However let it be known that I have shown, from Scripture, that at the very least there are some questions about your assertions on foreknowledge (being passive). When/if you are interested in a meaningful discussion let me know and I will be more than happy to engage.

 

I am interested in your points of view, though I think it is obvious from months of debate that neither you or I will come to agree.

I saw you posted 2 Thess 2:13-14

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This verse does not support your position, it contradicts it. It shows you are the chosen or elect "through" sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. It is not saying you were chosen to be sanctified and to believe the truth. Through and to are different words altogether and have completely different meanings. And you are called "by" the gospel, you cannot be called unless you first hear the gospel.

And how are we sanctified? By the word of God, through God's truth, the gospel.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

If we are sanctified through God's word (which we are), then you must first hear God's word, and you must believe the truth as shown in 2 Thess 2:13-14. Only then are you the chosen or elect.

So, this verse contradicts your position and supports mine.

 

You also listed Rom 8:29-30 to support your argument.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I don't see how this supports your argument, it is not even talking about election. It speaks first of God's foreknowledge, which supports my position, because 1 Peter 1:2 says we are elect according to God's foreknowledge. So once again, God's foreknowledge is shown to be first in the order of events.

The elect are chosen according to God's foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2), and those who are predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son are foreknown.

Election follows God's foreknowledge, those who are predestined follows God's foreknowledge. This does not support your doctrine whatsoever.

 

Next you gave Rev 13:8 to support your argument.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This one is easy. Those who worship the beast will be blotted out.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Again, because you cannot grasp foreknowledge, you cannot understand this. God knows from the beginning who will believe and who will believe not. It is those whom God knows will not believe that he blots out.

Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

God does not determine who will believe or who will not. But he knows who will believe or not (John 6:65). And those whom he knows will not believe are blotted out.

You never see any mention of anyone's name being added to the book of life, only blotted out. But in order to blot out a person's name, it had to be there originally. At a certain point that only God knows, when a person rejects God, God gives them up. They are blotted out. Or if a person dies in unbelief they are blotted out.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Cannot you see that Rev 17:8 supports God's foreknowledge? The book of Revelations shows God's foreknowledge, none of these events have happened yet, yet God can tell us in detail what is to come.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I don't know why this is so difficult for Calvinists. You do believe in prophesy don't you? God has told us many things that will occur in the future. He knows every event that is going to take place, and he knows who will believe or not.

 

Winman

Your lack of understanding of the Grace of God really saddens me. As you have continued to post your response to those who believe in the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation your posts indicate that you have become increasingly bitter. The posts of some of those who have tried to explain the Doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation have been exceedingly kind, more so than mine. Yet your responses became increasingly strident to the point where you accuse those who hold this doctrine to be robots and even heretics.

Sadly, I am reminded of the words of Peter to Simon of Samaria [Acts 8]. Because of certain acts of Simon it was necessary for Peter to rebuke Simon. Part of that rebuke seems appropriate to the increasing tone of bitterness expressed in your posts, particularly the more recent ones:

Acts 8:22, 23
22. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

 

Old Regular, couldn't I say the very same of you and the other Calvinist's on this board? You folks have said more than one derogatory remark about me and ridiculed me a number of times. I can handle it, why can't you?

I think I understand your doctrines pretty well, although I have noticed it is a common practice of Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers to use this argument. Truth is, not all of you agree on every point. It is pretty hard to nail down a doctrine that really is not fixed to begin with.

And I am not the first to call Calvinists robots or puppets. People have recognized this for centuries. They only ones who cannot seem to recognize this is Calvinist's and Doctrine of Gracer's themselves.

I watched a video tonight from Dave Hunt about Calvinism. I don't really know this fellow and if I would agree with him on all doctrine, but I certainly agree with what he says about Calvinism in this nine part video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-OESTsWsEA

Maybe you Cals and Doctrine of Gracer's should watch this so you understand our point of view.

You know, he sums it all up at the end. He says Calvinism's goal is to teach that God does not love all men as the scriptures say. I think he is correct.

 

Hunt is the brilliant theologian that tried to say Spurgeon wasn't a calvinist. LOL LOL LOL

I rest my case. :laugh:

 

Ok, take a deep breath...breath....and re-read your statement.

You claim to understand Calvinist teaching then affirm an assinine statement like this.

Now let me ask you a question. Are you married? It doesn't matter whether or not you are. If you are, so be it, if not, consider the question:

Do you love all women equally?

Men: Go home and tell your wives that you love her, but you love all women just like you love her....I'll make up a bed for you on my couch. :laugh:

 

:applause::applause::applause: nuff said!

 

Yes, all elect are believers. One must believe to be elect, but one believes because he is elect.

You keep on harping about election being according to God foreknowing "something" that people do (i.e. faith). The Scriptures never say this. You keep eisegeting. You assume that foreknowledge here means fore-cognizance of facts. That is NOT what this means. If you look at other passages about God's election according to foreknowledge, you will see what the foreknowledge is. People are the objects of foreknow, not their faith or actions. If a person is the object of a form of know it means an experiential and relationship type of "know."

Joseph had not known Mary until she conceived (Mat 1:24-25). He obviously knew that she existed and who she was.
Jesus never knew the workers of iniquity (Mat 7:23). He, being God, obviously knew that they existed and who they were.
Jesus knows His sheep and they know Him, just as He and the Father know each other (Joh 10:14-15). This is not talking about being aware of things about them and understanding who they are; this is indicating a relationship.

"In him" does not modify "us." It modifies "chosen." It is NOT saying that He chose "the ones in him" before the foundation of the world. It is saying that He chose us "on behalf of Christ" before the foundation of the world. He chose us to be "in Him."

He chose us to be in Christ (or for the sake of Christ) before the foundation of the world. On what grounds? Because He has already predestinated us unto to adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto Himself. Why? According to the good pleasure of His will and to the praise of the glory of His grace. What did His grace do? It made us accepted in the beloved/Christ. Why did His grace make us accepted? Because we have redemption through His blood. His blood on the Cross actually redeemed us; therefore, God, according to His grace, can justly perform His pleasure in us of drawing us effectually to Himself and adopting us as children as He predestined us. For this cause, He chose us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Prove this from Scripture. You have not yet.

That verse is referring to the beginning of His ministry, not the beginning of the world. It is saying that Jesus knew what Judas would be like even when He chose him as a disciple. Also, it does not say anything about election or those who do believe.

God foreknew would would believe because He foreknew them. He fore-relationshipped them. Your verse above does not say anything about God foreknowing those that believe. It merely states that Jesus knew from the beginning of His ministry who would not believe Him and emphasized that He chose Judas as a disciple though He knew Judas would betray Him, because Judas would fulfill prophecy.

Then, what does foreknowing people mean if God does not really foreknow them? This is a contradiction.

This verse still says, after "ye have known God." By saying that ye "are rather known of God" it does not mean that God begins knowing us when we start to know Him. It is emphasizing that the power of our salvation is not in us knowing God, but rather in God knowing us. He foreknew us before the foundation of the world.

He never knew them because He never knew them. For the elect, He foreknew them before they ever knew Him. Also, you can see that the knew here has nothing to do with Him knowing their autonomous "actions" or faith before the foundation of the world. This knew here denotes a relationship. Otherwise, it would be saying that Jesus is not aware of their existence nor knows who they are. When God foreknows people, He fore-relationships them. Because He fore-relationships them, He predestines them for sanctification/adoption, calls them effectually, justifies them, and glorifies them (Rom 8:29-30).

 

True.

True. No disagreement.

Now, why would specific virgins have to have oil to be known by the bridegroom? Also, the word for know here is a form of eidw, not ginwskw. Eidw implies an "awareness" or sense of perception or sight. The passage does not say if they successfully bought oil at the hour that they went and if their oil was burning when they were at the door. The bridegroom could have been telling them that he could not see them. Also, if the oil signifies the Holy Spirit, then you would be saying that it is possible for one to have the Holy Spirit temporarily and have to keep getting more of Him to maintain salvation.

No. You have to be known to God to be saved and have the Holy Spirit. You have to be foreknown of God and hence be predestined for sanctification, called, and justified to be saved and have the Holy Spirit.

His foreknowledge/fore-relationshipping you determines His effectual drawing so that you receive Christ.

That verse is not talking about His election or the ones that do believe.

Foreknowledge is God's foreknowing people. He fore-relationships people. Everyone determines that they will NOT be saved. God, as a loving parent on behalf of His elect, determines that they will be saved by drawing them effectually to Himself. They then love their Father. As a loving parent who pulls a rebellious child away from a car accident. So, God loves His own children in the same way.

 

God's love is not like man's love, so that analogy falls flat on it's face.

 

Ephesians 5:23-32
23. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30. For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Strange! Scripture does not seem to agree with you does it, especially when it comes to a husbands and his wife!:thumbs:

 

It agrees perfectly, as it is using the simile of giving up your life for the one you love, not that the love is similar. Would you sacrifice your child to save someone who hates you? We can never fathom God's love for mankind, as it is NOT the same as man's love. I can't believe you disagree with that!:BangHead: God is love, man isn't love.

 

I think you are all splitting hairs. I find myself agreeing more with Winman than the rest of you.
If anyone is eisegeting the Scriptures it would be the one who makes a statement like this:

God foreknew would would believe because He foreknew them. He fore-relationshipped them.

I believe that came from Ares-man.
But the Scriptures don't say that. You have to read into the Scripture "fore-relationship." Where do you get that from? I don't get that from Scripture.

Here are some of the thing I get from Scripture:
He knows the very number of hairs on my head (how long has he known that?)
He knows when a bird falls from the tree. (how long has he known that?)
He knows my thoughts--how great is the sum of them.
He knows my sitting down and my rising up.
He knows where I go--whether it is to the highest mountain or the deepest ocean; he knows where I am, and he will never leave me.
He not only knows all my thoughts, he knows my most inward secrets.
He knows absolutely everything about me.

He knows how much oxygen and nitrogen are in our atmosphere.
He knows when this world will come to an end.
He knows when Christ is coming again.

He has known all these things from before the foundation of the world.

And he knows whether or not I, or anyone else will reject him or receive him according to that same foreknowledge. It is according to that foreknowledge that I am saved. He knows. He doesn't force me to be regenerated or saved. I choose to do so. That choice was given to me because I was made in the image of God. Part of that image was that I was made differently than the animals, with reason and ability to think on my own, and to be able to choose right from wrong. And that includes the choice to receive Christ or reject him. Animals don't have any such ability. They are not made in the image of God. But God, according to his foreknowledge, knows far ahead of time, what choice I will make.

 

Does God have a love that resembles the unconditional effectual love that parents have for their children? If a parent will pull a rebellious child away from an accident to save him, can not God have that kind of love to give salvation to His elect? Can He not regenerate them while they are rebellious and only after pulling them away from the destruction of their sin they realize what love it was and then love Him?

Why is it that people can have unconditional love for other people even to the point of saving people from themselves, but God cannot? Somehow, in an effort to make God "fair" across the board, we have to eliminate its power to do anything of itself on behalf of people.

 

I showed several Scriptures that use the word ginwskw to imply a personal relationship. Even in English, if someone knows someone else, that word distinctly indicates a personal relationship.

These instances of know (ginwskw) do not denote a head knowledge of facts. They denote a personal relationship. Why? Because people are the direct object of the word know. This is the case in English as well as Greek.

Where in the Scriptures does God elect according to the foreknowledge of future faith? It never says that. It simply says that people are the direct object of foreknow. God foreknew people. If God knows someone (and you know that God knows all things) and does not know someone else, it means that He has a personal relationship with that person. If God foreknows someone, it's the same thing, only "beforehand." Election is according to God foreknowing people. He has a relationship with certain people before the foundation of the world. Because of this, He chooses to lay down His life for them (the sheep), purchase them with His blood (the church). He predestines them for sanctification, effectually calls them and draws them to Himself, justifies them, and glorifies them.

People are just so conditioned by tradition to assume that God's election according to foreknowledge is based upon future autonomous faith, that they cannot even see what the words in their context mean.

His active foreknowing people is greater than His "passive" foreknowing natural events. His foreknowledge is based upon love.

No, but He guarantees it.

Humans have the ability to think and reason unlike animals. That still doesn't mean that a human can will himself to flight as a bird. That still doesn't mean that a dead creature can will itself to life. That still doesn't mean that a man dead in trespasses and sins can will himself to a spiritual new birth.