The Elect --- Question 1

And if you are saved it is only because God chose you, new birthed you, and gave you the faith to believe: not because you chose HIM, period! Man has not and never will choose GOD of his own initiative or so-called free will. Just be thankful that GOD chose you and does not hold you accountable for your ???????????:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

Very well said and true to Scripture.:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

GOD's choice, out of the mass of fallen humanity, of certain ones to salvation in Jesus Christ is the highest manifestation of HIS Grace since without HIS choice no one could be saved.

Now if some of you do not like that truth then take it up with GOD if or when you see HIM.

 

If I did feel the need to take it up with GOD when I see him, I think it would go like this.:

"FATHER, I understand your that Your Word applies from the beginning till the end. I also know that Your Word was true when Peter said that "YOU did not will for any to perish but that all would come to repentance."

"FATHER, and I understand that YOU are Sovereign and that YOU could do anything you desire. I also know that YOU made man in Your image and that includes making choices. I know that when JESUS said that "YOU loved the world so much that YOU gave your one and only SON so that any and all who believe on HIM will not perish but have everlasting life."

"FATHER, I understand even tho YOU had foreknowledge of who would accept your gift of a second chance of spending eternity with YOU thru Your grace by accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. YOU did not choose any that anyone would go to Hell, but YOU did choose all of us to have the chance to receive your gift of grace. Thank you for choosing us all, we,individually, only have to accept the gift of grace you offer to all. Just like James said."

"Father, I even read where Paul warned us that false teachers would try to lead us in a wrong way."

"But FATHER, I have friends, who do not understand how Sovereign YOU are. They do no understand that YOU are so all-powerful that you could create a creation in YOUR image and give this creation the ability to choose. Father, these friends do not understand that YOUR reason for creating man was to have a relationship with someone who chose to worship and praise YOU."

"FATHER, I have asked them to show me in the scripture where YOU say that you have already chosen who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell. They can only do this by massaging the Scripture and ignoring other parts of the Scripture. FATHER, don't they understand that YOUR WORD does not contradict itself but instead YOUR WORD meshes and compliments within. They choose to take the teachings of others that were born much later, after the WORD was already given to us, as the reason to twist the Scriptures to say what they want it to say."

"Father, simply show them that YOUR WORD will stand on it's on merit and YOU will guide them though the simple understanding of it. FATHER, I really think that most of these people do love YOU they have just been misled."

Hallelujah!!! I do not have to wait till I see GOD for HE hears my prayers on this on a regular basis! :praying:

 

God said he knew Jeremiah before he was born. Now, if I understand Ares Man's concept of God's foreknowledge, this would mean Jeremiah existed before he was born. I do not believe the scriptures show this whatsoever.

On the other hand, if God's foreknowledge simply means that God can see through all time at once, he could see that Jeremiah would believe and be a man of great faith and obey all that God commanded him. And I believe this is what the scriptures show.

Jer 1:1 The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:
2 To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.
3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.
4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.
9 Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

Ares Man almost seems to suggest that the elect existed before they were born into this world, that they had a previous relationship with God before the foundation of the world. I personally do not believe this.

God does say in verse 5 that he knew Jeremiah before he formed him in his mother's womb. To me, this simply is showing God's foreknowledge. God could see that Jeremiah would believe God's word when he heard it.

We notice that Jeremiah did not receive God's word until this day. God's word is spirit, so I believe this is the day the Holy Spirit was poured upon Jeremiah.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And notice in verse 10 it says "this day" have I set you over the nations and kingdoms.

So, I do not believe that Jeremiah had the Spirit until this day. He did not have a relationship with God before this. I believe he knew Jeremiah would be a very faithful believer and so chose him to be a prophet.

And to answer Old Regular that said when the scriptures say Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe that this only meant from when his ministry started is silly. Jesus knew all that he had to do from his youth.

Luke 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Jesus knew everything he must do and his ministry from the very beginning, it didn't suddenly occur to him when his ministry began.

And John 6:65 says Jesus knew from the beginning who would betray him. The scriptures spoke of Judas betraying Jesus hundreds of years before he was born.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

Jesus here shows that he knew which of his disciples would believe beforehand, and he knew that Judas would not.

Ares Man seems to suggest that the elect had some sort of relationship with God before the foundation of the world. But notice in verse 19 Jesus speaks of Judas betraying him, and shows that it had not yet come to pass. That is, the Lord knew things that will occur in the future, it is not saying that things had pre-existed before the foundation of the world.

So, this is not scriptural. There are many scriptures that shows that Jesus knew who would believe and who would not beforehand.

 

And here are scriptures that show being the elect is conditioned upon who will believe.

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Notice very importantly in verse 15 that Jesus says that being his friend is conditioned upon obeying whatsoever he commands.

Then in verse 16 he calls the disciples friends. Therefore it is logical to conclude that they indeed did obey Jesus, else he would not call them friends. And the word "henceforth" in vs. 15 shows Jesus knew they would continue to obey him.

And then in verse 16 he says he has chosen them. So I believe this shows that election is conditioned upon believeing and obeying God's word. And Jesus knew beforehand who would believe.

John 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Notice that Philip immediately obeyed Jesus when Jesus called him to follow him. And then Philip found Nathanael who also believed the scriptures and was looking for the promised Christ.

And note that Jesus already knew of Nathanael, even before he was called. This shows foreknowledge precedes calling.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Lord also complimented Nathanael as being an exceptionally honest man which contradicts Total Depravity.

I personally believe that Jesus's foreknowledge of who would believe him was the basis of his selecting certain men to be disciples. All of his disciples immediately left their occupations to follow Jesus, which is very notable. Peter was married and had a family, yet left fishing immediately when Jesus called him. Levi was a publican and no doubt very rich, but he immediately foresook everything to follow Jesus.

Luke 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.

It is asking a great deal for a man to leave his family and occupation to follow a poor preacher, but all of his disciples did so. They were all men of great faith (except Judas).

 

You cannot demonstrate from Scripture that it was God that gave me the faith to believe, any more than it was God that gave me the faith to believe that the taxi driver would take me to the airport. I had faith in both. The object of my faith was different both times. In the former (more than twenty years ago) the object of my faith was Jesus Christ, and I believed in him form my salvation. He regenerated me; I was at that time born again; and saved--all at the same time. God did not give me that faith. I put my faith in him.

I put my faith in a taxi driver to take me to the airport--same kind of faith.
I fully trusted him to get me there. I had confidence in his ability to do so.

I fully trusted in Christ to save me. The difference between the taxi driver and Christ is the result. Christ gave me eternal life, salvation. The taxi driver only gave me a ride to the airport. Both required faith. The destination was different. The transportation was different. I am still on that ride with Christ. And at the end of this journey I will be in heaven.

God never gave me the faith to trust in either one. He gave me the ability to choose. The choice was based on facts. I had to rely on the reputation of the taxi company, and even perhaps my assessment of the taxi driver.
With Christ I had to rely on the promises of His Word--the gospel message. The Holy Spirit was also present to convict of sin. It wasn't a blind faith. These two agents are always present in salvation--God's Word and God's Holy Spirit. God's faith is not there. God has given that decision to mankind.

 

My guess is GOD would respond to you like HE did to Job: Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? [Job 38:2]

 

I agree with this. Never in the garden did God curse man's moral nature as some teach. It says man knew both good and evil, and shows he can choose between the two.

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Cain was not a slave to sin. The LORD himself said he could do well, which disproves Total Depravity. And the LORD said he would be accepted if he did so.

And notice in verse 7 that it does not say sin will rule over Cain. No, it says the exact opposite, that he will rule over it.

So, it is not shown in scripture that man's moral nature was cursed and that man is unable to do good and obey God. In fact, it says the exact opposite.

 

If you confuse the faith that a cab driver can drive a car with Faith in God then I feel sorry for you.:tear::tear:

 

Winman

I believe that you have misrepresented anything I said in the above supposed quote simply because it does not make sense. There is a proper way for you to quote someone. I suggest you provide the proper quote that supposedly makes the above claim or retract it. You should be able to respond to someone without misrepresenting what they post.

 

If you are unable to define faith outside the realm of religion I feel sorry for you. Do you even have a proper definition of faith?

 

Martyn Lloyd-Jones can explain it better than I can, not that you are capable of accepting anything.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Holy Spirit, page 140 makes the following argument [Paraphrased for brevity.]

“It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows :

Faith is a natural faculty that every person has. You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?

“In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless. “

 

Scripture refutes your argument, that is, if you will accept it for a change.

Romans 3:12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

Old Regular, you are correct. It was Ares Man that said this, not you. I sincerely apologize.

Here is what Ares Man said.

This was Ares Man's answer to John 6:65 that says Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not, and who would betray him.

So, you are correct, I made a mistake and apologize.

 

I have already answered this in several posts. Paul was quoting scripture from both Psalms 14 and 53 which are very similar. In both it is clearly shown that God is not speaking of all men, he is contrasting the wicked that have rejected God verses those who trust in him.

Psa 14:1 [To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

This is a theme you will see throughout scripture, especially the Psalms. God is contrasting the wicked, those who have totally rejected God verses the poor, widows, fatherless, afflicted, and oppressed who look to God for refuge and trust in him.

The Jews to whom Paul preached in Rome were very familiar with these scriptures and knew they did not apply to all men.

You should try looking up the scriptures quoted by the apostles in the New Testament in the Old Testament, then you will have a fuller understanding.

 

Faith is faith. It is the object of our faith that matters. Muslims have faith in Allah. In fact they are willing to die for their faith. But the object of their faith is not real. Their faith is in vain.
The object of our faith is the one, true, living God. That is what makes the difference. But the faith is the same.

 

I realize who Paul was quoting. Simply look at verses 2 and 3 above:

2. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So you see the quote from Psalms verifies what I said. Furthermore, there are times when the New Testament amplifies what the Old Testament Scripture reveals. The quote by the Apostle Paul is significant since the exercise of Faith in God would have to be considered GOOD, something that Paul says unregenerate man is incapable of.

 

Then how do you interpret the following Scripture?

James 2:118-20.
18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

The Apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:1-10 that after man is regenerated, and exercises the gift of Faith, that he is God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus:

8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now don't tell me that "created in Christ Jesus" is the same as believing that a cab driver can drive a car!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

He had to have faith to be regenerated. That believing faith was the same type of believing faith he put in a cab driver, believing that the cab driver to get him to the airport. Man is regenerated and saved at the same time.