The error of absolution

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Bro. Curtis, Nov 18, 2003.

  1. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    From New Advent....
    Absolution is the remission of sin, or of the punishment due to sin, granted by the Church.

    That's how the paragraph opens up. Let's continue....

    Absolution proper is that act of the priest whereby, in the Sacrament of Penance, he frees man from sin.

    That there is in the Church power to absolve sins committed after baptism the Council of Trent thus declares: "But the Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, He breathed upon His disciples saying, 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.'


    It sure looks to me like the RCC teaches that forgiveness comes thru them. The claim that Christ gave it to them is false, or you would have to believe that every evangelist has the power to forgive.

    To Peter are given the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Sin is the great obstacle to entrance into the kingdom, and over sin Peter is supreme. To Peter and to all the Apostles is given the power to bind and to loose, and this again implies supreme power both legislative and judicial: power to forgive sins, power to free from sin's penalties.

    Over sin Peter is supreme ? I scoff. If Peter, or anyone else could be given the power to forgive, then why did Christ have to die ?
     
  2. WPutnam

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    Because without Christ, no forgiveness could be given! It took the blood of the cross to open the gates of heaven once again!

    And then after the resurrection, Christ gave His apostles to forgive or retain sins!

    Don't believe me? Read John 20:22-23.

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+

    Receive the holy Spirit, Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained,
    John 20:23
     
  3. Bro. Curtis

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    My humble apologies for starting this threadwhile mad.....

    But... I think there is a very valid concern with Peter being called supreme over sin. Do you believe Peter is supreme over sin ?

    Scary scary.
     
  4. MikeS

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    You ignored (twice) the key phrases: "To Peter is given," and "To Peter and all the Apostles is given."

    Christ can give any authority He chooses -- don't you agree?

    Here, BTW, are the key words of absolution: The words necessary in English for forgiveness are “I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
     
  5. Yelsew

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    Do we not ALL have the responsibility and God's given Authority to absolve others of their sins that are confessed?

    Absolution does not equal repentance, only forgiveness.
     
  6. Justified Saint

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    Why then does Christ need to breathe on the Apostles with the Holy Spirit if he really was just meaning to say for brothers and sisters in the faith to forgive one another when they do wrong against each other?

    Sounds like a waste of breath to me. ;)
     
  7. MikeS

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    Do we not ALL have the responsibility and God's given Authority to absolve others of their sins that are confessed?

    Absolution does not equal repentance, only forgiveness.
    </font>[/QUOTE]God never granted me the authority to forgive sins in His name, nor to retain them. I can forgive the offense committed against me, but I cannot forgive the offense committed against God.
     
  8. trying2understand

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    Wow, Curtis.

    Your question surprises me.

    It was not necessary for Christ to die in order to forgive our sins.

    Christ died to make satisfaction for the debt of our sins.

    Very different thing. [​IMG]


    Now as to the Church's place in the confession and forgiveness of our sins:

    From the CCC paragraph 1445:
    "The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, wil be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into His. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God."

    You see, Curtis, through sin, we separate ourselves from the community of God.

    When Jesus forgave sins, He reintegrated the forgiven sinners back into the community. For example, He dined with them.

    So it is with the Church. Jesus established the Church, and uses the Church to carry out His will on earth.
     
  9. WPutnam

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    What are we talking about here? The power of priests to forgive or retain sins? What does Peter have to do with this, other then he is another apostle as well, with the power to forgive or retain sins. (Besides being the chief of the apostles. [​IMG] )

    Peter is not supreme over sin, as Peter himself sinned! Therefore, the popes today, the successors of Peter have to (gulp!) go to confession themselves like all of us other men and women!

    Bet you did not know that, did you? [​IMG]

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Almighty and eternal God, you gather
    the scattered sheep

    and watch over those
    you have gathered.

    Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
    your Son.

    You have marked them
    with the seal of one baptism,
    now make them one
    in the fullness of faith
    and unite them in the bond of love.

    We ask this through Christ our Lord.

    Amen.
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    My view of absolution is that when a public confession of sin is prayed by the congregation, the minister has the right to say to those people that their sins are forgiven by Christ. We are told in I John 1:9 that only Jesus is able to forgive sins. The minister or priest can only rubber-stamp what God has done. Remember only God can read the heart or life of those who confess their sins before God and toward the Lord God.

    Does this mean that every person who hears the absolution by the minister/priest is forgiven sins. No, not necessarily because we do not know the sincerity or lack thereof of every single person.

    All ministers of major denominations offer a benediction of blessing at the conclusion of a worship service. Does this mean that sinners and saints alike are receiving this blessing? No. Only those who know and love Jesus receive this Divine blessing ministered by the clergy-person.

    No priest or minister has the authority to remove sins. Only Almighty God can remove sins, other wise the Lord Christ has become merely a figure-Head, with no determinative powers.

    'IF we confess our sins, HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins . . . ' [I John 1:9] Sins are removed not by a priest, minister, ruling Elder or angels. Jesus died for our sins [I Corinthians 15:3-4 & I John 2:2] and only the Lord can forgive the sins of His people and the sins of lost sinners. [I John 1:9]
     
  11. WPutnam

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    I encourage all to read John 20:22-23 very carefully, which I will quote here again, and with emphasis to make my point:

    "Whose sins you forgive (cause) are forgiven them (effect), and whose sins you retain (cause) are retained (effect).

    There is no distinction between a private one-on-one between a priest and a penitant, and a general absolution given by a priest to a congregation. The latter is quite rare today, albeit it was done in early times, but in that case, individuals had to stand up to confess their sins in public! [​IMG]

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
     
  12. MikeS

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    "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

    Honestly, what about that is not clear?
     
  13. Bro. Curtis

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    I dunno, folks. It seems pretty clear that the statement says Peter is supreme over sins. To me, that sure looks like an attempt to remove the power of forgiveness away from the cross.
     
  14. MikeS

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    Frankly I don't know what the flowery phrase "supreme over sins" means, and I doubt you do either. What I do know is what the Church teaches, and that is that Christ granted His authority to forgive sins to the apostles, and all those who can trace their ordination to the apostles.

    Say it over and over: "To Peter (and the apostles) is given..."
     
  15. trying2understand

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    Curtis, how do you make the leap from "Peter is supreme over sins" to "remove the power of frogiveness away from the cross" when it was Jesus who gave Peter the authority to forgive sins in the name of Jesus?

    If Jesus gave Peter power over sin, by authorizing him to forgive sin, isn't Peter then supreme over sin?

    If you don't like it, then I guess you'll have to take it up with Jesus. [​IMG]
     
  16. WPutnam

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    Curtis, my friend, listren to me veeeeeeeeery carefully now; Christ is not talking to Peter only! He is talking to all of the apostles!

    Curtis, did Christ give the apostles the power to forgive or retain the sins of men, yes or no?

    That is all MikeS and I are trying to get out of you.

    Is the text so difficult to read, and with the simplest of exegesis, see the awesome power given to the apostle (including Peter)?

    Who are the "you" I emphasize in my last message above? Who is Christ talking to? The apostles! ALL of the apostles!

    And I might add, their successors as well...

    Does your preacher man have the power to forgive or retain the sins of men, Curtis? If so, when did he become a Catholic (or Orthodox) Priest? Show he his succession from the apostles themselves.

    Sorry, I'm being a bit mean here but somehow, I want to get this over to you that you throughly understand what we are trying to say about John 20:22-23.

    It is as obvious as a tree stump, Curtis...

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
     
  17. Bro. Curtis

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    First, Jesus never gave him the power to forgive, it's just that you don't understand the context of the verse, yet. Keep trying.

    Second, yer catechism CLEARLY states, Peter is supreme over sin.

    As those guys on P.T.I. would say (ESPN show), "go ahead, defend your boy ?"
     
  18. WPutnam

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    Go back and re-read as I edited my message a bit, but if John 20:22-23 does not state the obvious to you, I'm done.

    I've done the best I can, come holy Spirit...

    God bless,

    PAX


    Bill+†+


    Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
     
  19. trying2understand

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    Why don't you go ahead and share your understanding of the meaning of the verse then?

    I really can't image how "sins you forgive" can mean other than the obvious.

    Done that already. Just go back a couple of posts.
     
  20. Yelsew

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    Do we not ALL have the responsibility and God's given Authority to absolve others of their sins that are confessed?

    Absolution does not equal repentance, only forgiveness.
    </font>[/QUOTE]God never granted me the authority to forgive sins in His name, nor to retain them. I can forgive the offense committed against me, but I cannot forgive the offense committed against God.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Are you saying that God gives man the authority to forgive sins committed against God? Then what is the purpose of 1 John 1:9?
     

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