The fall and sin

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    This is a hypothetical question but I do have a reason for it. Often times when someone is teaching on the sin of man and the fall, trying to show that we are all sinners, and we are, they will say the proof that we are born sinners is that no one ever has to teach their child to be bad. Now that is true, but is it accurate to make that statement that way? Here is what I mean. Because of this reasoning about sin and children what if there had not been a fall? Does it mean that no child would have had to be taught to be good. In other words would they grow up and live without ever sinning without any teaching if man had not fell?
     
  2. dwmoeller1

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    Given that Eve and Adam did not sin till tempted by an outside source, it is reasonable to conclude that their children would have grown up w/o sinning (barring temptation from an outside source). Of course, we can't know this for certain, but there is nothing to suggest that the truly innocent would ever sin on their own.
     
  3. canadyjd

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    Not only that, they would never die if sin had not come into the world.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  4. drfuss

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    Does anyone have any ideas as to how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they sinned?

    1 week?
    1 year?
    1000 years?
    100,000 years?
     
  5. drfuss

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    Do we know that they would have lived forever? What about Gen. 3:22 shown below:

    22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
     
  6. freeatlast

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    While some time must have passed it most likely was not a long period certainly not 100,000 years and most likely not even a 1000 years. The reason is that Eve is called the mother of all living. In other words every person who ever lived or will live comes through Eve. If they were in the garden for a long period before the fall one would think that they would have had children and that would mean that there would have been children without sin and those children would still be with us today. We know the bible says that all have sinned so like I said they were not there long enough to have children before the fall.
     
    #6 freeatlast, Oct 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2010
  7. freeatlast

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    Yes we know. The reason is that the passage you gave is after the fall and Romans says this.
    Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    There was no death and would have never been death before sin because sin brought death.
     
  8. webdog

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    Agreed. With a naked healthy man and woman in a perfect environment we can conclude it was less than 9 months :)
     
  9. drfuss

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    Are you sure that sex was involved before the fall. The is no record of it. In their pure innocent state, sex may not have been a consideration. We cannot assume the Adam an Eve before the fall, were like us now.

    The woman was said to be a helper for Adam; not a mate. Nothing is said about sex until after the fall. Adam did not even give Eve her name until after the fall. It was only after the fall that Eve was said to be the mother of all living.

    Adam and Eve were not told to populate the earth until after the fall.

    Adam and Eve could have been in the garden communing With God for many, many years.
     
  10. freeatlast

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    Sometimes I just have to role on the floor because of some of the responses. My friend God told them to Be fruitful, and multiply. HAVE BABIES! :laugh::laugh::laugh: That command was before the fall. They did not have time to carry it out. There is not long periods of time in this.
     
  11. dwmoeller1

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    FWIW, the command to be fruitful and multiply comes in Gen 1:28 - apparently before the fall.

    But I agree that one should be careful not to speculate too much one way or the other. On one hand, the idea of their living years, centuries or millenia before the falls seems problematic in light the command to be fruitful and multiply. On the other hand, it doesn't seem so problematic if they were thinking in terms of living forever - in that case, 100,000 years is just getting started.

    In short, there is just too many unknowns to speculate with any sort of surety.
     
  12. canadyjd

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    Freeatlast beat me to the answer. He said:
    Which is why we know they would have lived forever if sin had not come into the world.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  13. drfuss

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    Gen. 1:27,28
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    Yes, I missed Genesis 1:27,28 in my posts.

    However, Genesis 1 addresses the general creation of all things including man and woman. Genesis 1 envelopes Genesis chapters 2&3 and covers the events in chapter 2&3, i.e. it goes beyond the fall.

    Genesis 2 gets into the specifics concerning man. In verse 7, God created man. In verse 8, God planted the Garden of Eden (not in chapter 1). In verses 18, 21, 22, God created Woman to be a helper comparable to man (not listed as a mate).


    So we don't know if sex was a factor before the fall. But in Chapter 4:1, it states that Adam and Eve had sex. It could have been and sounds like for the first time.


    However I agree with dw that we can't know these things for certain. But I think it is possible that Adam and Eve could have been in the Garden fellowshipping with God for a long time before the fall.
     
    #13 drfuss, Oct 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2010
  14. drfuss

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    Before you get up from rolling, suggest you answer my last post.
     
  15. freeatlast

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    There is nothing to answer. Any suggestion that the lived without cohabiting is just silliness.
     
  16. drfuss

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    Okay, so you choose not to answer my post #13. Maybe someone else can.
     
  17. canadyjd

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    Gen. 2:24 does make reference to the institution of marriage and the "two" becoming "one" flesh. It seems to be insinuated.
    I'm not sure how that matters, one way or another, unless you want to speculate they had children prior to the fall. I am certain that is contrary to scripture.


    peace to you:praying:
     
  18. drfuss

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    Thank you for responding.

    My question was "could Adam and Eve have been in the Garden fellowshiping with God for a long time before the fall". If so, this could support the old earth theory.

    The argument against this was they would have had sex and children if it had been a long time. My counter arguments included that there is no record that they had sex; Eve was described as a helper, not a mate; and Genesis 4:1 makes a point that they had sex and Cain was conceived. Why state that they had sex in Genesis 4:1, if they were having sex all along? The scripture does not indicate they had sex before Genesis 4:1.

    Concerning the scripture in Chapter 1 about being fruitful and multiplying, Genesis 1 addresses the general creation of all things including man and woman. Genesis 1 envelopes Genesis chapters 2&3 and includes the events in chapter 2&3, i.e. it goes beyond the fall. Genesis 2 gets into the specifics concerning man. In verse 7, God created man. In verse 8, God planted the Garden of Eden (not in chapter 1). In verses 18, 21, 22, God created Woman to be a helper comparable to man (not listed as a mate).

    Another point is that before the fall, fellowshipping with God was the important thing and sex may not have been involved due to Adam and Eve being purely innocent.

    As I stated, we really don't know, but Adam and Eve could nave been in the garden for a long time before the fall.
     
  19. canadyjd

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    I will agree scripture doesn't give a specific time period for Adam and Eve being in the garden before the fall.

    However, Gen. 1 indicates that Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day. I believe that is a literal day. If it is referring to a literal day, then the commandment to be "fruitful and multiply" was given on the same day Adam and Eve were created (discribed in more detail in chp.2). That is the same day God instituted marriage (the two become one flesh), which is more detail about "be fruitful and multiply".

    Just because Eve is called a "helper" suitable to Adam, doesn't mean that s*x wasn't part of that suitability, in fact, it seems to be an intregal part of that suitability.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  20. drfuss

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    I think that the general creation described in chapter 1 could encompass the time of both chapter 2 and chapter 3 which addresses the fall in the Garden of Eden. Chapter 4 starts the implementation of the "be fruitful and multiply" actions. Chapters 1-3 document creation and the chapters after chapter 3 address the actions after creation.

    Concerning them having sex, it is written in Chapter 4:1 as though it was the first time. In the rest of the Bible, it usually states that a woman conceived when she got pregnant. Why is it stated differently in Chapter 4:1 if they were having sex all along?
     

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