The Father never drew Judas

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Oct 27, 2014.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
    66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


    Judus is listed among the unbelievers in verse 64. In verse 70 Jesus uses the present tense "IS a devil" demonstrating his current spiritual state, of which no change had occurred "from the beginning" (v. 64) but these remained in unbelief "from the beginning" as false professors. Instead, Judas was chosen by the Father and given to the Son to be "the son of perdition" (Jn. 17).

    The explanation for those listed still in unbelief among his professed disicples in verse 64 and those who would leave him in verse 66 is given in verse 65 and this is clearly demonstrated by the word "therefore."

    Coming to Christ has been used since John 6:37 to mean coming by faith to Christ. Coming by faith to Christ is clearly stated to be "the work of God" in John 6:29 and then demonstrated in a methodical manner by demonstrating those who responded to Christ's words in John 6:29 do not come to Christ by faith in verses 30-36 wherein verse 36 is then contrasted to verse 40 which is the conclusion of verses 37-39 as the same concluding words in verse 40 are the same concluding words of verse 39 where "OF ALL" given by the Father do come to Christ. Indeed, coming is the consequence of God's work of previously giving such to Christ (Jn. 6:37) as coming is "future tense" ("shall come") being consequential of first being given. Thus again, "this is the work of God that ye believe" as God first must give before they "shall come."

    Immediately following, coming is then credited to God's work of first being drawn (v. 44), thus coming is also consequential to being drawn proving again, "this is the work of God that ye believe." Moreover, giving and drawing by the Father is effectual for all given and all drawn as the final clause used in John 6:39 and 40 also concludes in verse 44. In addition the prophets quoted by Christ in verse 45 are texts that are being applied by the prophets ONLY TO COVENANT PEOPLE where "all" does not include anyone that is a false believer (Isa. 45:13 with Jer. 31:33-34) which is directly applied to the people of the New Covenant in Hebrews 8 and 10.

    Hence, these unbelievers with Judas in John 6:64 are explained in verse 65 to never have been drawn to Christ by the Father in the sense "draw" is meant to mean in the preceding context as verse 65 directly refers back to verse 44.

    In John 12:32 the term "all men" should not be interpreted contrary to this preceding expository teaching by Christ on this subject, nor contrary to its immediate preceding context which gave rise to verse 32 due to GRECIANS wanting to see him. Hence, the term "all" and "world' in this context has reference to "all" men without distinction rather than all without exception and thus a "world" of all races, classes and genders.

    To take the statement in John 12:32 and then work backwards trying to reinterpret the fuller exposition in John 6 is simply bad hermeneutics and a universal conclusion is directly contradicted by John 6:64-65 where false professors are explained to be part of people in this world that were never drawn by the Father to the Son in the contextual sense of "draw" in verse 44 and thus did not "come to me" by faith.
     
  2. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    I wholeheartedly agree, but you're kicking against the goads on here...
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    I think you got it backwards but I understand what you are saying. Those who oppose the truth of God's word are "kicking against the goads":thumbsup:
     
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Someone suggested moving this to the "Calvinism" forum, but I do not see a debate on Calvinism here. And so it stays.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    The Biblicist


    Coming to Christ has been used since John 6:37 to mean coming by faith to Christ. Coming by faith to Christ is clearly stated to be "the work of God" in John 6:29 and then demonstrated in a methodical manner by demonstrating those who responded to Christ's words in John 6:29 do not come to Christ by faith in verses 30-36 wherein verse 36 is then contrasted to verse 40 which is the conclusion of verses 37-39 as the same concluding words in verse 40 are the same concluding words of verse 39 where "OF ALL" given by the Father do come to Christ.


    :thumbsup:

    :wavey:
    Immediately following, coming is then credited to God's work of first being drawn (v. 44), thus coming is also consequential to being drawn proving again, "this is the work of God that ye believe." Moreover, giving and drawing by the Father is effectual for all given and all drawn as the final clause used in John 6:39 and 40 also concludes in verse 44.
    :thumbsup:


    In addition the prophets quoted by Christ in verse 45 are texts that are being applied by the prophets ONLY TO COVENANT PEOPLE where "all" does not include anyone that is a false believer (Isa. 45:13 with Jer. 31:33-34) which is directly applied to the people of the New Covenant in Hebrews 8 and 10.


    :applause:
    To take the statement in John 12:32 and then work backwards trying to reinterpret the fuller exposition in John 6 is simply bad hermeneutics and a universal conclusion is directly contradicted by John 6:64-65 where false professors are explained to be part of people in this world that were never drawn by the Father to the Son in the contextual sense of "draw" in verse 44 and thus did not "come to me" by faith.[/QUOTE]

    ................It seems obvious when read without an agenda!
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    Thanks Dr. Bob, I will try to be careful not to take it in that direction.
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    If it can be shown conclusively that the Father never drew Judas in the sense that "draw" is used by Christ in Jn 6:44, then all who interpret John 12:32 and the words "all men" to be all men without exception and the term "world" as all human beings ever existing are proven to be wrong, and the meaning "all men" WITHOUT DISTINCTION and "world" as all races, genders and classes must be the only correct sense intended. It must be the only correct sense, as the absence of Judas repudiates any definition of these terms that must include him.

    There can be no doubt that John 6:65 is the explanation by Christ for the exclusion of not only Judas, but all those listed in verse 64, in addition to all of those actually leaving him in verse 66, as among those whom the Father never drew, as verse 65 is directly referring to verse 44 and that is made perfectly clear by the introductory words - "therefore I said unto you" which can only refer to verse 44, as nothing else said by Christ in the previous context corresponds to the words used in verse 65.


    I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. - v. 39

    have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. - v. 40

    draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. v. 44

    hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. - v. 54


    In each case, this final phrase is inclusive of ALL that immediately precedes it as stated objects of the Father's work. The final phrase in verse 44 is the final phrase in verses 39, 40 and 54 and in each case, this phrase is the EFFECTUAL CONCLUSION of ALL being given, drawn by the Father whereby eternal life is obtained effectually. Hence, in verse 44 the first pronoun, or "him" drawn is the very same "him" raised, just "all" who are given by the Father in verse 39 are raised, and all who have been given everlasting life in verse 40 are raised and all that hath eternal life in verse 54 are raised. This final phrase denotes resurrection of eternal life FOR ALL previously being considered as objects or receivers of the Father's work in each verse.

    Verse 44 explicitly states universal inability to come to Christ "no man CAN come" and then states the only possible exception "except the father draw HIM" leaving NO OTHER ALTERNATIVES in the text for the concluding phrase to refer to but "him" drawn is the "him" raised. The same is true in verses 39, 40 and 54 as there are NO OTHER ALTERNATIVES found in those verses for that final phrase to refer to but those whom the Father gave, which are those coming to Christ for faith and eternal life.

    Finally, in verse 65 the Lord replaces "draw him" with "be given of him" which in context is referring to what the act of coming to Christ really entails = believing on him. Those in verse 64 are said to have "believed not" and thus they are without faith in Christ of which "come to me" in verses 39-44 has been used and specifically applied in verse 40 to mean to believe in Christ which those in verse 36 did not come/believe in Christ just as those in verses 64 and 66 never truly were given or drawn by the Father and thus did not come/believe in Christ. So the phrase "be given of him" means the ability to beleive/come to Christ as that is then made synonomous with "draw" as it is used in verse 44.
     
    #7 The Biblicist, Oct 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2014
  8. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,461
    Likes Received:
    45
    So is Peter, and Thomas, and you, and me. Who of us have not betrayed Him? Yet, He still drew us. I strongly disagree with your conclusion that Judas was never drawn. Here are but two reasons:

    John 1:9 That [Jesus] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
     
  9. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Brothe Biblicist, I wholeheartedly agree with you. God used evil spirits on Saul and even spoke through a donkey. Shoot, even Saul prophesied. Judas had the same power to heal as the other eleven had, imo.
     
  10. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3

    To your John 1:9 verse....see Psalms 19 & Romans 1. Natural revelation...natural light is enough send people to hell.

    To your Titus 2:11...what about people who died centuries ago that never knew, or heard, about Christ? What about Pharaoh and the Egyptians during Israel's 430 years of bondage? What about the Philistines during Goliath's time? God never drew them. Go and read Moses and Pharoah and find one time God told Moses to tell the Egyptians to believe in the God of Israel. It's just not there.
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    Remember, that these things are said in the context of distinguishing "some disciples" from others in regard to unbelief, and unbelief "from the beginning" rather than occassional lapses of faith. It is also said in the context of "draw" as defined in this contextual contrast with those that "believed not" in the contextual meaning of "draw" rather than by some post-New Testament theologion in their own context of evangelism. Would you then consider yourself to be the "son of perdition" AFTER your profession of faith? Would you consider yourself to be "a demon" AFTER your profession (Jn. 6:70)? Would the Lord call you and place you among those he says "believed not" and knew this to be your case "from the beginning"? Remember, Jesus places these in the context of "disciples" or professed believers who "from the beginning" he knew were still unbelievers. He places them in the context of those never having been drawn (Jn. 6:65) and he is speaking of them AFTER their professed confession and as professed "disciples." Do you believe all these things are true of you as a professed "disciple" of Christ??? Do you believe that Christ would speak of you PRESENTLY as a "demon"? a "son of perdition" and explain that present condition as one who is still in unbelief due to never being drawn by the Father? Remember, verse 65 is referring to being drawn in the sense of verse 44 and its contrast in verses 64,66. Is that you?

    I realize what jesus said to Peter "Get behind me Satan" and that all Christians can fall into the trap of Satan and be used by him, however, Jesus never said that in a context of having known "from the beginning" who were in a continuing condition of believing not (present participle) "believed not" and in the context of never having been drawn (v. 65) and claim that Peter "IS" a "demon."

    I sincerely believe, and I think I can show by clear exposition based on clear exegetical principles that this verse is simply jerked out of its context and has an entirely different meaning if interpreted by its context. Perhaps I will open a thread to demonstrate what I mean. However, I think verse 4 has already defined this in a creative sense where "light" is equal to "life" both in regard to NATURAL life and then later to SPIRITUAL life. So in verses 4-9 he is the source of created natural life for everyone COMING INTO the world. In verses 10-13 he is the source of SPIRITUAL life to all who believe on him.

    Again, "all men" cannot possibly mean all human beings in existence, because we know even in relatively modern times of tribes that have been found who never have even heard of Christ, the gospel, the Bible and their own history demonstrates that ignorance. On the other hand the "grace of God" has "appeared" to all races, classes and genders. Such previously unknown tribes who have no knowledge of salvation or Christ or God's saving grace, the grace of God has ultimately appeared even to them.

    If you want to define "grace" as the revelation of God in nature or the law of right and wrong confirmed by conscience. Ok. However, Romans 1:18-32 demonstrates that such appearance did not bring effectual salvation to anyone being considered within that context, but only condemnation and the wrath of God and a downward spiral of being "given over" by God to worse sins. The cause is their fallen nature and how it responds to such appearance of God in nature and conscience (v. 18).
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Oct 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2014
  12. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,165
    Likes Received:
    322
    "grace" as the revelation of God - It's a possibility:

    John 16
    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    The Spirit of God has a manifold ministry on earth with one even given towards the world.

    The Holy Spirit reproves/convicts the world of sin without which presumably we cannot be saved because in our natural state we are incapable of faith in Christ. So then conviction could be a work of grace, mercy.

    If so, could conviction of sin then be considered part of the calling (disregarding, of course the obvious tension of acceptance or rejection of said conviction)?

    Also (in this passage)
    He will guide the Apostles.
    He will glorify Jesus Christ.

    HankD
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    In context, Jesus is speaking of the Spirit coming after his ascension in order to carry out the Great Commission into all the world. He is not speaking about GENERAL revelation through creation or conscience.

    For example, look at verse 7 in your own quotation above which introduces the passage you quote:

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    Look at the passages that close your quotation:

    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you
    .


    Moreover, the OP is about Judas. Judas was never a true believer, but a "devil" and right "from the beginning" (Jn. 6:64,70).

    In the sense of being "given" as depicted in John 6:37-40 Judas was never given to the Son. He was given to the Son for another purpose as "the son of perdition."

    In the sense of "draw" as depicted in John 6:44-45, Judas was never drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:64-65).

    Judas, as well as "some" other "disciples" were "tares" or false professors and Jesus knew they were such right "from the beginning" (Jn. 6:64,66).
     
  14. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,165
    Likes Received:
    322
    True, Judas was never a real disciple (even today we see Judas types who seemingly make a good profession of faith yet after a while fall away sometimes even after a long while).

    You had brought up the subject
    It was that statement which I was addressing from John 16 as an additional revelation of the Spirit concerning a common grace (perhaps) reproval/conviction of sin which seems from the text to be directed towards the cosmos (supported by following passages) and not just the world of those who would ultimately believe on Him.


    HankD
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,410
    Likes Received:
    328
    All of the above is very true and biblical. I trust no one will disagree with the obvious.
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    Ok!


    I presented a case that the term "world" in redemptive passages simply means "all races, classes and genders" without individual specification. See Post #49 under the thread "Penal Substitutionary Atonement"
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    THE JEWISH MINDSET



    When Jesus went into Samaria the Samaritan woman asked "How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans." - Jn. 4:9

    Did not Jesus tell her that "salvation was of the Jews"

    When the Gentile woman from Seraphonicea came to Jesus did not Jesus say:

    Mt 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.


    Was not even the form Jewish proselytes that came from various countries like the Enuch that embraced Christ as the Messiah were treated as second class church members in regard to their widows?

    Acts 6:1 ¶ And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.


    The Jewish Church in Jerusalem did not go to the gentiles until chapter ten, and then only by coersion due to God showing Peter THREE times he was not to treat as unclean what God had cleansed and even then the first words he had for gentiles was:

    Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

    Even then, God had to send persecution to get the gospel to the Gentiles in Acts 8-11 and even then we read:

    Acts 11:19 ¶ Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

    Only the Jewish Proselyted church members would preach to Gentiles:

    Acts 11:20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.


    Finally, God had to call and commission an Apostle for the Gentiles in order to bring the gospel to Gentiles as the church at Jerusalem simply would not do it:

    Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

    Even after this special called apostle to the Gentiles, Peter, James and John committed themselves to the "circumcision" while agreeing Paul was to go to the "uncircumcision"

    Gal. 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision..

    When James writes his epistles it is to the "twelve tribes" or the Hebrew Christians:

    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    When John writes, he writes to those who had already been given the "old" commandment which is also the "new" commandment - thus writing to Hebrew Christians.

    The whole letter of the "Hebrews" was written to Hebrew Christians alone.

    My point is, that this mindset of Hebrew Christianity was generally opposed to evangelizing the Gentiles and the evidence demonstrates it clearly. It is in the epistles written by Hebrew Apostles to Hebrew Christians that we find the emphasis upon "the world" and "the whole world" in regard to the gospel.

    The term "world" and "all" used in these Hebrew Apostolic writings to Hebrew Christians was designed to turn them from their Jewish inclusivism to accepting ALL RACES, CLASSES AND GENDERS = "world" and thus all mankind WITHOUT DISTINCTION of race, class or gender "all" as objects of God's grace.

    Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


    Jesus did not come to redeem all human beings without exception but came to give eternal life only to as many as the Father had given him to save:

    Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Take note that God gave him "power over ALL flesh", but he was not to give eternal life within that sphere of flesh to any more than "as thou hast given me" and "ALL" that the Father gave him do come to him and "of ALL" the Father gave him "NOTHING" will be lost, thus proving he did not come to give eternal life to "all flesh".
     
  18. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,165
    Likes Received:
    322
    Well, I never meant the John 16 passage to prove universalism but simply to show that God gives good things to the unregenerate as well as His own in response to your "grace" possibly being "revelation".

    But nonetheless, thanks for your responses.

    HankD
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    The Father never gave to Jesus ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION in John 6:37-39 but in "all" that he gave there were ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION.

    The Father never drew to Jesus ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION in John 6:44 as John 6:64-65 identifies many exceptions but the Father did draw ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION as "the greeks" are given as an example of that in John 12:21-32.

    Jesus never gave eternal life to ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION in John 17:2 but only "as many as the father gave me" OUT OF "ALL FLESH" which is ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION.

    Jesus said "I lay down my life for my sheep" but the sheep are not ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION but they are ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION of race, class and gender (Rev. 5:9).

    Therefore the terms "world" and "whole world" and "all" when used in redemptive contexts does not mean ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION but only ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,114
    Likes Received:
    52
    Judas was the One who fulfilled the OT prophecies though to be the one to turn against the Messiah, so he was lost from the start, and by his own choice and the soveregn plans of God, was to never get saved, correct?
     

Share This Page

Loading...