The fear of losing God's forgiveness

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Jul 28, 2003.

  1. William C

    William C
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    I've got a question for everyone.

    I have traditionally held to the idea of Once Saved Always Saved, but some passages in scripture seem to throw a wrench into that concept.

    Romans 11, in which Paul specifically tells us to fear because we too could be "cut off."

    And the parable of the unforgiving servant, who, if you recall was forgiven a great debt and then had that forgiveness removed when he failed to forgive his brother a smaller debt.

    Why did Jesus tell this parable? It sounds like the motive was to strike fear in the hearts of his listeners if they were not willing to forgive. Doesn't the OSAS doctrine explain that parable away by removing its threat of having ones forgiveness removed.

    Jesus doesn't qualify this parable by saying, "The only reason someone wouldn't forgive their brother is if they weren't really forgiven in the first place." He specifically says the forgiveness was removed.

    Does our doctrine undo what Christ was trying to do in this text by explaining away any reason to really fear?

    Just asking...
     
  2. Frogman

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    Yeah Bro. Bill,

    I see every where in Scripture when that I read such contradictions by the Spirit such as 1 John
    everyone wants to pervert scripture and teach that "we loved Him before He loved us." That is what is wrong.

    Bro. Rest assured, if what he has worked in our hearts can be lost, then there will be no man in heaven except the man Jesus Christ.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  3. Sherrie

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    Frogman and Bill...While I understand what you are saying Frogman...I have also lately been wondering the same thing Bill is saying.

    What about those who got saved and somewhere down the lane they no longer live the life of a saved person? Or what about Apostasy?

    Is it, we just lose the joy in salvation...but still have Salvation?

    What about the guy in 1975 who is saved, but from 1986 until now, he has not been any example of a christian? And then just today he comes back to the Lord. Now I know you call this backsliding...but what if it is time to go home and you have backslidden and have not come back to the Lord? Where are you going?

    I do not mean this sarcastically. I truly am asking. I have been asking this, and everyone always seems to talk in circles.

    Thank you for any input on this.

    Sherrie
     
  4. Frogman

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    Sherry, I do believe this is a legitimate question that should be asked. But to follow it out that one of the children of God who are bought with the Blood of Christ can finally or ultimately be lost "again" is a denial of the truth of Scripture in calling the gift of God eternal life. To have the possibility of it ever being lost by one who possesses it renders it something far less than eternal life. Then it follows that we do not lose our eternal life, but of a surety are able and often do lose our joy of the salvation of the Lord while in this world.

    Note Luke Ch. 1:

    vs. 63-79;

    The Bible without doubt teaches of an eternal salvation and of a joy of salvation in our human experience. If it is possible for one of the blood bought to wander away such that he no longer feels the chastening hand of God; he IMHO is simply removed from the world as his/her/their witness is no longer to the Glory of God.

    Further, if as some believe that the only sin we are condemned for is unbelief; then logically, (forgive me for that, I am not Spock, but I must follow thoughts out to where I can see they extend, if in error, pray mercy from the Lord when I am judged), in essence what a believer must do in order to be lost is to "unbelieve." However you or I may try we cannot and will not by the Grace of God unbeleive.

    2 Tim 2.6-13

    To fear being cast out is again IMHO a failure of man to know the nature of the Work of Grace accomplished in Christ at the Cross.

    As the vss from Luke 1 show to us there was definitely a people (Anna and Simeon also bear witness to this) who looked for the coming of the messiah, the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham, David and Israel through the Messiah; yet the focus of first:

    vs. 68: Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

    God has both visited his people, he has seen the condition they are in he has weighed them in the balance of His Holiness and found them wanting, yet it is declared by the Holy Ghost in the same breath that He has redeemed His people; thus He has purchased them He has bought them; He has delivered them; this is eternal salvation.

    vs. 69: And hath raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    For the purpose:

    vs. 72: To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    73: The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we, being delivered out of the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear,

    Note now 2 John 8: Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

    Now no man I have heard will admit his doctrine teaches works, even when it is evident that it does so. Yet here in 2 John vs 8 it is evident that there is possibility of something being lost which "we" (the apostles) have "wrought" or worked. If eternal salvation is by Grace (and I believe it is completely and only by Grace) then it is impossible to call this which is worked by God as something we or the apostles have worked, so then what must be in consideration here is not a view of our eternal gift of life in Christ Jesus, but our experience of "salvation" in the presence of our enemies (or rather the enemies of our Lord, for it is His name alone the world despises and ourselves only for His sake).

    This question is not IMHO a result of "can salvation be lost" but it is really wondering where is the full truth held. As we see so many calling on the name of the Lord, but differing with us in our doctrine and teaching; failing to show forth what we have come to believe to be 'bearing fruit' as in John 15 when in truth this bearing will, I believe will teach us to endure in the doctrine once delivered to the saints.

    I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed to him against that day. ( 1 Tim 1.12).

    Hope these few lines are helpful.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  5. Sherrie

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    I want to acknowledge you Frogman, and your hard work here on my question. Thank you for your help. I need to think on this before I can make a comment. I want to study this some more.


    You are saying...When a person comes to "believe"...there is no way that person can "not believe" after that.

    Same as saying once you walk in the "Way", you cannot "not" walk in the "Way".

    1.) How does Apostasy fit into this?

    2.) A backsliding person still has salvation...they just do not have the joy in that salvation. (this is what I have always thought) But now if they can't "not believe"....how do they backslide? I think this backsliding thing is far more serious than people think.

    I am probably not asking correctly. Sorry if I have confused anyone...that was not what I meant to do.

    I need to think on this.

    Sherrie
     
  6. dianetavegia

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    Excellent reply, Bro. Dallas!

    Sherrie, you said:
    For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10

    It doesn't matter if that person is not living a life that seems 'saved' to us. We are all sinners and the Bible tells us that one sin is too many .... one sin or a bazillion sins!

    Diane
     
  7. Frogman

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    Thanks Sisters for your kind words.

    Sherrie,

    Concerning believing unto eternal life this is the whole work of God:

    John 6.29

    Concerning obedience to 'the way' we are cautioned to not grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4.30). Our disobedience is this grievance. This is sometimes called conditional time salvation, I believe this is worked under the Grace of God in accordance to our obedience to His Word (or according to our walk in the 'way').

    Note Ps. 23:

    Psalms 23:1  ¶&lt;&lt;A Psalm of David.&gt;&gt; The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
    2  He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
    3  He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
    4  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
    5  Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
    6  Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.


    The two views we are discussing I believe are taught very clearly here.

    Concerning your study of this topic, take your time, when you come to the assurance of it then you will know it is by the leading of your Shepherd and not a man.

    Consider the work of the Shepherd as you consider this in relation to Ps. 23. Also the words of Christ concerning the 99 and the 1 sheep.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  8. Yelsew

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    Brother Bill, It is not God or God's message that is capable of, or that actually does change, IT IS US! We are the ones who can change from unbeliever to believer and then once again unbeliever. We Go from not having salvation to having salvation and then through not believing lose their salvation, but it is not God that changes!
     
  9. William C

    William C
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    I appreciate everyones comments but no one has addressed the very clear parable of our Savior who clearly teaches that the servants initial forgiveness was removed because he failed to forgive his brother.

    The scripture continually talks about us recieving salvation IF we continue in the faith, as if we could choose not to continue in it.

    Please tell me how you handle these very clear passages. I don't want to be guilty of removing the fear of the Lord where He desires it to be envolved, do you?

    Dallas, I understand that true love drives out fear, but that doesn't mean fear doesn't have its place. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

    Our relationship starts with fear and ends with agape love, but fear has its place and I think it has been explained away to the deteriment of the church. Look at teens today, there is no fear of God. They mock him because they don't fear him. We whitewash passages like the one mentioned here with our theological explainations that the scripture never presents as a qualification for these fearfilling texts.
     
  10. Yelsew

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    What more need be added to the parable? It is perfectely clear what Jesus means.
     
  11. Frogman

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    Brethren,

    You do err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.

    If Your savior is not immutable, then he is able to lie; if he is not able to lie, then when He has said you have eternal life, then that is what you have.

    To believe that you can 'believe' then 'unbelieve' is unbelievable. How can this be?

    Have ye not read Hebrews 6? Just try to disbelieve unto salvation and see what your heavenly Father shall do.

    You are right Bro. Bill, I have not dealt with the parable; but I have sufficiently shown from numerous portions of scripture that the idea of losing eternal salvation is utterly impossible.
    does scripture not speak to us that He is able to save to the uttermost? Having taught His people of their eternal life and righteousness in Christ, only to have it remotely possible for them to "lose" this knowledge, then there will remain nothing that even God is able to do to save you and I would go so far as to say that for someone who has believed unto salvation only to "unbelieve" there shall remain no other course for them, not even repentance that shall be able to cause them to be 'born again.'

    I will deal with the parable on my next visit.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  12. William C

    William C
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    I look forward to that.

    Also, deal with Romans 11 concerning our fear of being "cut off" if you will, thanks.
     
  13. Yelsew

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    Nowhere in the scriptures is there a declaration such as: "I am man and I Change not"

    Since it is human faith that is the key to human salvation, it is possible for man to lose salvation by losing faith. Hense the warnings to man to persevere until the end. "Hang in there, Believe in me til the end, and I will save you!"

    But, if you lose your faith in God, if you stop believing in Jesus, if you become so engrossed in the cares of the world, and stop drinking the living water, and do not take nourishment from the word of God, you will find that God has no use for you in the end and will not save you.

    Who wants a worker who refuses to work?
    Who wants one who does not store up treasures in Heaven's bank?
    Who wants one who has turned his back on you?
    Who wants one who used to believe but stops believing? They are worthless to you!

    God certainly has no use for them, He simply judges them to be worthless and casts them into the lake of fire!
     
  14. Sherrie

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    Yelsew....that is very fearful! I do not wish to ever be without the Lord.

    Sherrie
     
  15. Yelsew

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    Truth often causes humans to fear. God does not want us to live by fear, but by believing in him to the end of our natural life when our spirit departs our flesh, and for believers, comes into the presence of our Lord. For non believers, there is the judgement and the casting into the lake of fire (John 3:18 and Revelation 20:13-15)

    Hebrews 9:27, 28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Believe in Jesus to the end, Believe the promises and you are saved for eternity. Fail to do so and you are cast into the lake of fire.

    Judge is also a Title for God. In the same manner that God is Love, God is Just (the judge)
     
  16. Frogman

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    Bro. Bill,

    Are you referring to the parable in Matt. 18? Or Luke 17?; or Luke 16?

    Sorry for the questions, but I wanted to be sure and discuss the one you have in mind so you wouldn't suspect I was trying to dodge the issue. I know where you are in Romans; :D Chapter 11. You do realize this chapter is after Paul states that God has not cast off his people...don't you? (Ch. 9) Where he uses pretty strong language to assure his readers and subsequently you and I {God forbid!} he says.

    Well, let me know which parable you have in mind, or is it a combination of the parables? I have been studying each of them since we spoke so I will attempt an answer when I am certain which one you are discussing or if you are referring generally to each.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  17. William C

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    Matt. 18 is what I had in mind.

    As to Romans 11, that would depend on how you interpreted "God's people" wouldn't it? He also just said in a previous chapter that He would make those who are not His people His. Plus, this explaination doesn't explain the verse where he tells the Gentiles to be fearful because they could be "cut off"....does it? If so, explain.
     
  18. Frogman

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    How many ways can you interpret "God's people"?

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  19. William C

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    You interpret it to mean those God chose to save, the elect.

    I interpret it to mean those who believe in Him through faith.

    Yes, those are one in the same to a Calvinist but it is two separate intepretations. It goes back to the question; How does one become a person of God?

    I believe that whosoever can become a person of God through faith. You believe that only those God chooses or elects to the neglect of the non-elect can become a person of God. That is the difference.
     
  20. Primitive Baptist

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    The sense of Romans 11 is not that the Gentiles be cut off from the love of God and be eternally condemned, but that they, like the Jews, could be cut off from the priveleges with which they had been endowed, they being no better than the Jews.
     

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