The Final Judgment

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 10, 2006.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    HP: There are many that present salvation as being accomplished ‘in total’ in this life, even to the point of denying those taking the name of Christ will have to stand before the Lord in judgment. According to the Apostle Paul, is such a view Biblical? When Scripture states that God “will render to everyman according to his deeds”…….”eternal life” or “wrath,” at this judgment, that all is a ‘done deal’ in this life and that we will not suffer that judgment? Do the words ‘who will’ in verse 6 denote yet a future time in which this shall be finally accomplished ‘in totality?’

    Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    In Dan 7 we see the judgment scene depicted "The court sat and the books were opened".

    We see that on this earth - this happens after the rise and fall of the 4th world empire from Daniel's day (from the Babylonian Empire).

    In that judgment "future" from Daniel "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 and when that happens according to Dan 7 - the persectution of the saints on earth - ends.

    Paul states that "according to my Gospel GOD WILL judge" in the future - a future time to Paul. Obviously the pagan Roman empire had not yet fallen so it has to be future to Paul.

    In 2Cor 5 Paul speaks of that future judgment saying that ALL must stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    Peter says that the judgment will START with those who claim to be the followers of Christ.

    In Rev 14 we see this warning at the end of time sent to all people on earth "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgement HAS come". This is the first of 3 important messages at the end of time.

    We are living at the end of time according to Daniel 8 and the 2300 year timeline he gives there.

    That endtime Dan 7 - Romans 2 - 2Cor5 judgment has already started.

    And that was the main point of the Adventist Church coming into being - to be a voice that would clearly make that point for people to accept or reject.

    Most people associate Adventists with Sabbath or clean-unclean meats - or vegetarianism -- but these were all side issues. (though I have to admit that I have a lot of fun talking about them)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    The judgment occurs in 3 phases.

    The first is the 2Cor5 - Rom 2 - Dan 7, Rev 14:6-7 pre-advent Judgment where "The court sits and the books are opened" and Christ's rule of Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them" is used to show the truth of who has already accepted Christ and who has not.

    The 2nd phase is during the millennium as we see in Rev 20:1-4 where the saints who have been raptured to heaven - sit in judgement upon the fallen angels and the wicked. "By their fruits you shall know them".

    Once all that is complete - then you see the third phase when the City of God comes down out of heaven at the end of the Millennium. At that time all the wicked surround the camp of the saints and then the white throne judgment is started for the wicked - each one is judged and as Jude says - God convicts all the ungoldy of all their ungodly deeds.

    Then -- and ony then - are the fires of the "2nd death" ignited.

    Then -- and only then- are ALL perpared to witness the terrible ordeal of the "wages of sin" payed by the wicked for their own sins. And all of it is done "IN the presence of the Lamb and of His Holy Ones" Rev 14:10.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    When Scripture states that God “will render to everyman according to his deeds”…….”eternal life” or “wrath,” at this judgment, that all is a ‘done deal’ in this life and that we will not suffer that judgment? Do the words ‘who will’ in verse 6 denote yet a future time in which this shall be finally accomplished ‘in totality?’

    Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
     
  5. BobRyan

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    I am not sure what you are asking. God's judgment was future to Paul's day as we see in Romans 2:11-16 where "according to Paul's judgment" there would be a future day of judgment.

    In 2Cor 5 it is the same picture - future judgment.

    Rev 14 merely shows us that future point when the announcement is given to those on earth - that the judgment has started.

    In Dan 7 we are told (of this future judgment) that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" -- the problem of course is - not everyone who "says Lord Lord" is actually a saint (Saved) Matt 7.

    God's judgment message today is like the Boat message given to Noah's generation. It was intended to "Wake them up" to a sense of their danger and need of rescue. Sadly - most of the people of earth simply "slept through" that warning.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    I am trying to awaken those that take the name of Christ, that there is going to be a judgment yet to come for us to attend, and it won’t be just about rewards or the lack thereof, but a judgment that will forever bring to light those that loved God and His commandments, and those that were deceived as to their standing or have forsaken their first love. I for one do not desire to be of those found to be sleeping through a clear warning to make our calling and election sure.

    I believe there are those, even among us, that overlook these warnings, with the dismissal that it doesn’t involve them. They often talk of loosing rewards, but this says nothing about the loss of rewards, but rather it involves eternal life or eternal torment for everyone in attendance. The passage in question should be the impetus of self-examination, to make sure that we are of the ones that will indeed persevere to the end in obedience. “but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”
     
  7. BobRyan

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    I think you are right.

    Bob
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Said BobRyan,
    "And that was the main point of the Adventist Church coming into being "

    GE:
    I am unable to distinguish what it - from your point of view - is about.

    As far as I can see, the bringing of the One like the Son of Man before the Father the 'One of years', and the opening of the books of judgement, had been fulfilled through Jesus Christ "when/as He was raised from the dead IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER"- hohsper ehgertheh Xristos ek nekrohn dia tehs doksehs tou Patros". (Ro6:4) Christ's resurrection for believers - the Elect - had been their judgement, as the same Scripture declares, "unto life eternal". Jesus lied not, saying, he shall not enter into judgement, but has passed from death into life". So, someone else must be lying here!
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    GE:
    The good old Gospel denied, thrice, is your explanation above!
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    BR:
    "The first is the 2Cor5 - Rom 2 - Dan 7, Rev 14:6-7 pre-advent Judgment where "The court sits and the books are opened" and Christ's rule of Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them" is used to show the truth of who has already accepted Christ and who has not."

    GE:
    So one's title to salvation - one's worthiness in judgement - is one's choice - i.e., one's own works. False notion!
    No 'saved' is brought before the Father in his own person - or he shall surely die; but in and through Jesus Christ he had been brought before the One with white hair, in fullest splendour and lustre of his glory. Higher elevation for those "in Him", is unreachable. The resurrection of Christ brought them right up there in the presence of God's judgement.
    Youre 'phase 1', explained, and explained, a falacy
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    BR:
    "The 2nd phase is during the millennium as we see in Rev 20:1-4 where the saints who have been raptured to heaven - sit in judgement upon the fallen angels and the wicked. "By their fruits you shall know them".

    GE:
    What concoction of falacy this time!
    "... the saints who have been raptured to heaven ..."????
    "... sit in judgement upon the fallen angels and the wicked ..."???? Scripture: "Judgement belongs to God".
    "... By their fruits you shall know them ..."???? Who will pass the test? But Scripture: "God who knows the heart .... intentions ..."

    This concept is a hoax and myth from inception to propagation.
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    BR:
    "... Once all that is complete - then you see the third phase when the City of God comes down out of heaven at the end of the Millennium. At that time all the wicked surround the camp of the saints and then the white throne judgment is started for the wicked - each one is judged and as Jude says - God convicts all the ungoldy of all their ungodly deeds.

    Then -- and only then - are the fires of the "2nd death" ignited.

    Then -- and only then- are ALL prepared to witness the terrible ordeal of the "wages of sin" paid by the wicked for their own sins. And all of it is done "IN the presence of the Lamb and of His Holy Ones" Rev 14:10."

    Another deadly mixture of truth and error ...
    The 'last judgement' will be sentence being executed upon the wicked, and recompense being paid the 'godly'. Everything then will have been decided --- long ago --- since eternity in fact. The wicked and the saints in that day will be separated like the sheep and goats in the parable.
    Then the white throne judgment is ENDED for the wicked as for the saints.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    God is the one that says that we will sit on thrones judging angels - and this happens during the Millennium as this is the ONLY time where it is stated that the saints are reigning with Christ. --- obviously.

    In the Dan 7 pre-advent judgment "the BOOKS ARE OPENED and then judgment is passed in favor of the saints.

    But during the millennium the saints are judging (the wicked) on that same Daniel 7 basis as did the "myriads and myriads" witness the judgment in Daniel 7.

    As for the Dan 7 judgement is passed in favor of the saints - and they succeed on the Romans 2:3-16 we are given -- the same as we see in 2Cor 5:10. Obviously.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    I would be the last to argue that you are not coming up with false notions.

    But in this case (2Cor 5:10, Rom 2:2-16, Dan 7:9-22) the Bible is so clear on this point of the use of "books" and the "deeds done in the body" and "not the HEARERS but the DOERS of the law JUSTIFIED" in that FUTURE judgment when "according to my GOSPEL God WILL JUDGE the secrets of all men through the man Christ Jesus" that it is far too obvious to be obfuscated by your "false notion" comments.

    GE said --No 'saved' is brought before the Father in his own person - or he shall surely die; --

    GOD said "WE MUST ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done IN THE BODY whether they be GOOD OR they be EVIL".

    As Dan 7 points out "the court sat and the BOOKS ARE OPENED" and eventually "Judgment is passed IN FAVOR OF the saints" Dan 7:22

    Read it and weep GE - this is the Word of God -- it can not be bent to your usages.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Read vs 22-27 with some focus on detail. The pagan Roman empire falls (the 4th beast is divided into its 10 parts) and THEN come the 1260 years of the dark ages that we see in Dan 7:24-26 after which Dan 7 says the court sits and the judgment scene of Dan 7 puts an end to the persecution of the saints - and also opens the door to the kingdom finally being inherited by the saints as it is turned over to Christ.

    It is far better to simply read the chapter GE and pay attention to detail - than to rant about some other ideas contrary to the Word of God in this chapter. Better to just accept the teaching of scripture. It is God's Word.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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