The first sin, how is it possible?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Feb 17, 2009.

  1. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
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    I have gotten this question a few times and please excuse me if I butcher it, so feel free to make it more theologically correct.

    How is it that Eve created in God's image, "good", had the ability to sin?

    Even if she was tempted there was nothing like that in her, she was perfect and unable to do such a thing.

    Did God create that hole inside her and allow Satan to tempt her for a purpose of what we know as the fall?

    feel free to comment in any way...
     
  2. Marcia

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    I think being made in the image of God, Adam and Eve had a will. This will allowed them to make a choice, including a choice to believe the serpent over God, and for Adam, the choice to disobey God's direct order to him.

    God does not have evil in Him. Adam and Even did not have evil in them but they chose evil over good with their wills. Then they "knew" good and evil - they experienced evil by choosing it.
     
  3. zrs6v4

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    if they are made good, perfect and sinless.. or in other words without a sin nature, then why did they choose sin? why did holy and sinless Adam reject God.. its like us rejecting God in heaven in a sense... I do realize the temper will not be there but i dunno.. haha

    When we bear God's image we reflect His attributes, correct?

    I understand what your saying, but it just doesn't seem to fully answer my question at this point. I hope Im not just trying to look for something I wanna hear, but I do agree that God allowed them to choose sin.
     
  4. Allan

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    First, we must understand that Adam and Eve were not created perfect, and as such unable to sin. They were created innocent and thus having the ability to go either way. Now since the only thing they knew of and to do was that which God spoke to them, they obviously obeyed since it was all they knew.

    I think you are confusing what 'being created in God's image' refers to. It is not being made holy and thus unable to sin but being made in the likeness of God regarding certian attributes.

    We find in scripture shortly where Satan comes on the scene and gives some new information to them which is contrary to what they know. It is at this point, and not till this point, that Adam and Eve never had a choice to obey or not.

    Therefore no hole was necessary nor does scripture allude to such. God did not create Adam and Eve TO fall but created them knowing they WILL fall. The difference is distinct in that the second senerio man fell and is thus the one who is responsible for his fall, Or you have the other in which God made them fall and thus is the one responsible for their fall.
     
    #4 Allan, Feb 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2009
  5. menageriekeeper

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    I have to agree with Allan on this one.

    We are no where told that Adam and Eve were created "perfect". Nor are likenesses of anything "perfect". A picture of you would only show your "image", but it wouldn't tell everything there is to know about your personality. It might reflect your personality but a reflection is NOT you.

    So we reflect God's image. Well God had a will, we have a will. Adam and Eve used theirs to do what God told them not to do. And that is what sin really is: rejecting the Creator in favor of the creation. This is the root of evil that exists in our world.

    Did God allow it. Yep. Did He cause it? Well if you want to get technical, He was the one who created Satan sooo..... Draw your own conclusions. Was He wrong for creating something He knew was only going to cause trouble? Well now you've opened a whole new can of worms.
     
  6. Jim1999

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    Man, created in likeness of God, we consider the moral disosition of his soul which is originally called "original righteousness" (eccl 7:29). Then consider Col 3:10; Eph 4:24; after the image of God in knowledge, righteousness and true holiness. Not absolutes, but potentials. Adam failed in that he disobeyed the direct command of God, not to eat, and as a result his knowledge, righteousness and holiness were affected and we have the fall of man.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. Marcia

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    Just because Adam and Eve were created without a sin nature does not mean they are like God, who cannot sin. God allowed them to make choices, and they did so.

    Delving into this is one of those mysteries I do not think we can fully comprehend or know.
     
  8. OldRegular

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    When God created man he created him upright, or righteous, fully capable of freely choosing between good and evil:

    Ecclesiastes 7:29, KJV
    29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

    But they have sought out many inventions; and so begins man’s dilemma!

    Thomas Boston in Human Nature in Its Fourfold States, page 37ff, expounds on the nature of man as created by God:

    “God hath made man upright. By ‘man’ here we are to understand our first parents; the archetypal pair, the root of mankind, the compendized world, and the fountain from which all generations have streamed; as may appear by comparing Genesis 5:1,2, In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him: male and female created He them; and blessed them and called their name Adam. ..... In this sense, man was made right [agreeable to the nature of God, whose work is perfect], without any imperfection, corruption, or principle of corruption, in his body or soul. He was made ‘up-right,’ that is, straight with the will and law of God, without any irregularity in his soul. By the set it got in its creation, it directly pointed towards God, as his chief end; which straight inclination was represented, as in an emblem, by the erect figure of his body, a figure that no other living creature partakes of. What David was in a gospel sense, that was he in a legal sense; one ‘according to God's own heart’, altogether righteous, pure, and holy. God made him thus: He did not first make him, and then make him righteous, but in the very making of him, He made him righteous. Original righteousness was created with him; so that in the same moment he was a man, he was a righteous man, morally good; with the same breath that God breathed into him a living soul, He breathed into him a righteous soul.”

    God made a special place, a garden called Eden, in which this first man and his wife would live. There God would fellowship with this first family. When God placed Adam and Eve in Eden He gave instructions as to their responsibility.

    Genesis 2:15-17, KJV
    15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
    16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


    Because God created man righteous he had the ability to to keep God’s instructions perfectly, even in the face of temptation. He also had the ability to freely choose between good and evil.

    We do not know how long the blessed fellowship continued between God and the first family, Scripture does not indicate. We do know from the above Scripture that man, body and soul, physically and spiritually was created to be immortal. Thomas Boston, page 38, comments sadly on the ruin of this first family.

    “But they have sought out many inventions. They fell off from their rest in God, and fell upon seeking inventions of their own, to mend their case; and they quite marred it. Their ruin was from their own proper motion: they would not abide as God had made them; but they sought out their inventions, to deform and undo themselves.”

    Man rebelled against God; Eve yielded to temptation, Adam sinned with deliberate intent [Genesis 3: 1-6]. John Gill comments on the Apostle Paul’s description [1 Timothy 2:14] of Adam’s transgression as follows:

    “There is no need to say with interpreters, that he was not deceived first; and that he was not deceived immediately by the serpent, but by Eve; and that he is never said in Scripture to be deceived, as Melchizedek is never said to have a father or mother. The apostle's positive assertion is to be taken without any such limitations or qualifications; Adam never was deceived at all; neither by the serpent, with whom he never conversed; nor by his wife, he knew what he did, when he took the fruit of her, and ate; he ate it not under any deception, or vain imagination, that they should not die, but should be as gods, knowing good and evil. He took and ate out of love to his wife, from a fond affection to her, to bear her company, and that she might not die alone; he knew what he did, and he knew what would be the consequence of it, the death of them both; and inasmuch as he sinned wilfully, and against light and knowledge, without any deception, his sin was the greater: and hereby death came in, and passed on all men, who sinned in him.”
     
    #8 OldRegular, Feb 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2009
  9. J.D.

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    I like the way RC Sproul puts it:

    Adam was made 1) able to not sin AND 2) able to sin

    After he sinned, he, and we, became unable to not sin.

    After the resurrection, we are unable to sin.
     
  10. canadyjd

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    How could man be fully capable of freely choosing between good and evil before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

    If they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil, they certainly couldn't choose between good and evil, could they?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  11. OldRegular

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    You ask a very perceptive question canadyjd, one to which I find it difficult to respond. But I will give you my best initial response.

    First: Adam and Eve were the only people who ever lived who had complete freedom of will.

    Second: What did that freedom of will involve. J.D. quotes R.C. Sproul as saying: Adam was made 1) able to not sin AND 2) able to sin. We must assume the same about Eve. I might say Adam [and Eve] had the ability to obey or disobey God.

    Third: Scripture tells us that Eve was deceived [1 Timothy 2:14]. That same Scripture also tells us that Adam was not deceived. Therefore, Adam consciously chose to disobey God before he ate of the forbidden fruit did he not. Can you tell me that disobedience to God is not evil.

    Fourth: Scripture also tells us in Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Therefore it appears that Sproul was correct: Adam was made 1) able to not sin AND 2) able to sin. Sadly he chose to disobey God and after choosing ate of the forbidden fruit.

    Again, a very perceptive question. Perhaps I should have said Adam and Eve had the freedom to choose to obey God or disobey God but is that any different than saying they had the ability to choose good or evil?
     
  12. quickened1

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    Why did God give Adam his wife BEFORE the temptation ? Would the outcome have been different without Eve’s existence ?

    I think one reason God gave Adam his wife BEFORE the temptation was because he wanted to level the playing field. Adam, I believe, would not have failed if it had been him against the serpent,less Eve. God knew Adam would come through unscathed but at the same time, HE knew it wasn’t a fair fight. Of course God wanted Adam to make the right choice but perhaps the justice of God called for a level playing field. A common saying among men is that “Women weaken the legs”.

    Here is how I came to this conclusion. Consider the makeup of the man. There are 3 types.

    The Old Testament people and the lost folks of our day were/are bondservants. That is their souls are stuck to their flesh. They walk according to the flesh and , apart from God, they can’t do anything about it. In the O.T. ,cleansing of the body was done because the soul was stuck to it like an intertube to a tire. Eve, I think, is a type of the flesh. She was taken from Adam rather than taken directly from the ground. Adam and all of the animals came from the ground. The flesh has its desires and speaks to us. Basically everything it tells us is negative. Its looking to satisfy itself so the lost are lead around by it and are servants of it. In the Christians case, the flesh is “weak”. Eve’s body, before the fall, wasn’t weak but no doubt Eve was weaker than Adam and that is why Satan went to her instead of Adam. The bible does not say that Eve was created in God’s image. It says Adam was. Eve was IN Adam. The bible says that the man ought not to cover his head because he is the image and glory of God. However the woman is told she is the glory of man and her hair is for a covering. (1 Cor. 11:5-15)

    We should also note that since Adam and Eve were husband and wife, they were one in God’s sight. Eve was IN Adam. All women are IN a man. The unmarried woman is IN her father. She has his name. He is her head or authority. The same principle applies to a married woman in relation to her husband. She moves out from under her father’s authority and goes under her husband’s. She then has become one with him and is IN him. Notice how this applies to the Christian in relation to Christ. We are IN him, under his authority , one with him and we take his name.

    The Christian is the middle ground. He is a big improvement over the bondservant. The Holy Spirit is about to move in and take up permanent residence within. Before doing so he has got some work to do first. When you purchase a pre-owned home you clean it up before moving in. So it is with the H.S. He performs the “circumcision made without hands” ( Col. 2:11). Cutting the flesh away from the soul, cleansing the soul and then sealing it (imagine a sandwich inside a ziplock bag.). So the Christian is no longer a bondservant or a slave to sin. Although he still has the flesh to contend with, he has the Holy Spirit to give him strength and to show him the way. The Christian now has a choice. He can walk according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. Despite the big improvement the man is not yet perfect.

    The third type is the Christian who has (will eventually have) his glorified eternal body. Having discarded the body of sin and death, having the mind of Christ, image completely restored, fully sanctified, the Christian is now like Christ with nothing to hinder him.

    Adam is very much like the third type mentioned above. He has got the upper hand over the serpent. God wants the playing field level so he brings in Eve BEFORE the temptation. Adam’s body is no hindrance to him whatsoever but Eve takes the place of the body of “flesh” that the Christian of our day deals with. She is the voice of the flesh. She is going to lead him down the wrong path if he listens to her. Remember she is IN him so in a sense, this is all on Adam. After the fall, God in a sense, takes Eve out of Adam and judges her before putting her back in Adam. Compare that with the Christian IN Christ. We are in Christ and everything we get, we get it because we are IN Christ. Eventually we will be singled out when it comes to judgment for rewards or loss thereof.

    So what we are left with basically, in my opinion, is what amounts to a man on the level with a born again Christian. He has a very good shot of getting it right. Will he go with the Spirit that is in him? The Spirit is reminding him that if he eats of the tree he will die. The flesh (Eve) is telling him to eat of it. He disobeys his FATHER (GOD) and eats. He followed after his flesh (Eve ate first and he followed).

    So it is not that hard to understand how Adam could have sinned when we consider the rest of the bible. Yes he was created in the image of God, but the Christian today was also, the day he was saved. The Christian stills sins however.



     
  13. Jim1999

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    Quote: myself Adam failed in that he disobeyed the direct command of God, not to eat, and as a result his knowledge, righteousness and holiness were affected and we have the fall of man.
    ------------------------------------

    Glad someone else could see disobedience in there. My devotional to-day in Other Christian Religions centered on disobedience to-day.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  14. canadyjd

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    Yes, I believe it is different from saying they had the ability to choose good or evil.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  15. Marcia

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    I have to disagree. Adam chose to disobey God. Not only did he disobey God, but he did not take headship over Eve as he should have. From the text, it appears he was with Even when she was tempted, yet he did nothing.

    When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. Gen 3.6

    Some say this does not mean Adam was not with her, but I think it does mean that. Even if he wasn't, when Eve offered the fruit, Adam had to know it was from the forbidden tree or God would not have held him accountable for disobedience. So Eve offered the fruit, which Adam knew was forbidden, yet he ate it.
     
  16. quickened1

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    If Adam was the kind of guy that would not take headship over his wife, then why did the serpent go after Eve? If Adam was like that he would have been a pushover. Why not just go straight to Adam. In my opinion, he needed to decieve Eve first and bring her into the mix.

    If Eve had not been involved and Adam was decieved, he would have still died spiritually. Leaving his off spring born in the image of him (Adam). We would be in the same situation I would think. Not sure how it would have gone with childbearing though.
     
  17. zrs6v4

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    Allan- I think I agree, if you dont mind can you also explain what God meant by "Very Good"? This may be where I got thrown off

    Marcia- I also agree that it is beyond our comprehension as to what God had in mind

    JD- I love RC, that is a very good quote and makes sense

    Canadyjd- This is kind of what I had in mind. Im still thinking about this though. Obviously evil was present (Satan), so there would have been the ticket to an unknowing evil choice..
     
  18. Marcia

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    Maybe the serpent went after Eve because he (Satan-serpent) did not know Adam was the kind of guy who would do nothing. Satan does not everything like God. For all he knew, Eve was a more vulnerable target because she had not received the command directly from God about the tree that Adam had.

    (On your 2nd point, if the serpent had tempted Adam and Adam had eaten the fruit, that still would have been disbodience, not deception, since he had the command directly from God. I think it was deception for Eve since she did not).
     
  19. canadyjd

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    It is clear from the passage that Eve knew the command. She quoted (misquoted actually) the command to Satan. Satan quoted the command accurately, while denying the truth of it and slandering God with His lies. Eve was decieved by the promise she could be like God, "knowing good and evil".

    I believe that inherent in the deception that she could "be like God" is that she could use her own will to choose between good and evil...always choosing the good...just like God.

    Therefore, the very first deception of Satan deals with the concept of "free will" in the choices of good and evil.

    It was a lie then, and it is a lie now.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  20. Me4Him

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    Satan didn't "lie" to Eve, he told her the "TRUTH".

    Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

    "knowing" sin is to "experience sin",

    Adam/Eve didn't "know" they were naked until after they sinned.

    I think the question must go back before the foundation of the world,

    God said it wasn't his will for any to perish, and God repented/grieved he made man,

    This being the case, and with God's "foreknowledge", why didn't God come up with a plan in which no one would perish, and God wouldn't be repenting/grieving he made man????

    Everything has a "purpose" behind it, which is not always revealed in the events that we can read.
     

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