The flimsy foundation of ME

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by npetreley, Aug 11, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    I started a related thread questioning whether or not ME proponents are brainwashed by Joe Faust. This thread is more about the flimsy reasoning they have adopted from Faust. My question is, have you ever seen an ME proponent base his argument on the plain reading of scripture? I'm sure I may have missed such a thing (and feel free to cite references), but here are the patterns I perceive to be most prevalent:

    1. ME advocates rely most heavily on parables and analogies. Parables are by nature once removed from reality, because they are stories meant to convey a message. Parables, themselves, are not THE message. Indeed, Jesus even used parables in order to prevent some people from getting the message.

    2. ME people draw tenuous connections between other scriptures to parables. For example, one ME argument is based entirely on the idea that goats are clean animals, and then they plug that fact into the parable of the sheep and the goats.

    This is TWICE REMOVED from the real message because it takes an unrelated fact (that goats are clean animals) and then pretends to establish from this fact that the goats must symbolically represent believers in a parable! It assumes their reading of the parable is correct, which is based on the assumption that their substitution of believers for goats is correct! Does anyone actually believe this is a sound method of establishing doctrine?

    3. ME advocates ignore the scriptures that are NOT parables which speak directly against their teaching. What of when Paul says that people who preach another gospel (which is no gospel at all) by works, they should be accursed? This is not a parable. It requires no interpretation. It does not require that you apply any OT law about clean animals to understand it. Yet the ME advocates dance around this scripture and others like it (Romans 8:1, Col 1:13, etc.)! They prefer to establish their doctrine based on parables, symbols, and innuendo.

    The fact is, you can build just about any bizarre and false doctrine you like on parables, symbols, and innuendo. It's the easiest way to build doctrines on lies and then call it "scriptural". All you have to do is assign whatever meaning you like to the symbols, assign importance to any element you like, and go from there. They are, after all, symbolic illustrations, so you can manipulate them any way you want. That's why it's so easy to take a parable about Jews (the vine) and change it to mean it's a parable about believers.

    If this is the kind of scripture exegesis Faust encourages, I recommend avoiding Faust like the plague.

    .
     
    #1 npetreley, Aug 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2007
  2. belvedere

    belvedere
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2006
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    0
    A big Amen!
     
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then I think the ME guys should come and either confirm or refute what you have outlined here.
     
  4. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    What doesn't make sense to me is here we have a person that is dead set against the gospel of the kingdom and has even put those of us that hold to the doctrine on ignore, but he is so obessed with this doctrine that he can't even let it go.

    He is so dead set on this doctrine being heresy yet he continues to open up threads that give us opportunity to show just how Biblical it actually is.

    Just for the record I believe the gospel of the kingdom to be true and have never read Bro. Joey's book. To my knowledge I have never even listened to an entire sermon by him.

    And I know that there are a couple of others on here that could say the same thing, so this false idea that we are just a bunch of Joey Faust followers is simply ludacris.

    It's just simply another post by someone that has run aground any kind of somewhat sane Biblical argument to throw out more emotion-based arguments. This is typically what happens when you can't refute what's being said with Scripture and you can't even prove what you personally believe to be truth with Scripture. You simply turn to emotionalism. And unfortunatley it takes on all kinds of forms.
     
    #4 J. Jump, Aug 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2007
  5. Lazarus

    Lazarus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please excuse my ignorance, what it ME?
     
  6. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lazarus ME is the intials for the derogatory way that opponents to the gospel of the kingdom refer to folks that hold to the doctrine. It stands for millenial exclusion or millenial exclusionists. It's simply another way that opponents deal in emotionalism instead of Scripture.
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lazarus, ME is the foolish doctine preached by many that saved people, those who Christ has sealed with His Holy Spirit, will spend the 1,000 years during the Millenial Reign of Christ in either
    1. Outer Darkness
    2. Hell
    or
    3. The Lake of Fire

    To date, they have not been able to give Scriptural proof for the doctrine. When they do use Scripture, it is twisted out of context to fit their theory.

    Grab a Bible and find one verse that says God's saved ones will be in one of the three places during the 1,000 year reign. It ain't there. Yet the ME proponents keep insisting it is... with no proof.
     
  8. Lazarus

    Lazarus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you for the replies, Up until a few weeks ago when I first came across this forum I had never heard of such a thing as Kingdom Salvation or Millenial Salvation. I've been watching the debates with interest but I just couldn't figure out what the initials stood for.

    I'm sorry J Jump but I believe there is only one Salvation.

    Blessings
     
  9. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lazarus let me ask you a question or two then. How do you reconcile Scripture that says salvation is by God's grace through faith apart from works with the Scripture that says salvation is through a faith that produces works?

    Those two are contextually opposed to each other. There is no common ground. One says no works and the other says faith that produces works and without works the faith is useless and will not save.

    I look forward to your response.
     
  10. Lazarus

    Lazarus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's easy J Jump. I like everyone else am a sinner.

    Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    As such, there is nothing I can do to pay the debt I incurred from my sin except being delivered to hell since my sin condems me.

    Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


    Because I accepted Jesus Christ as my Saviour, Jesus pays that debt for me. No works on my part involved.

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


    Now being saved and having the love of Jesus, I no longer have the desire I once did to sin. I want to please God in what ever way I can.

    Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    That's being a Christian, works demonstrate salvation. Works are never involved in salvation.
     
  11. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Isn't it beautiful? And simple. Praise God!

    Love your cat!
     
  12. Lazarus

    Lazarus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank You. That's Lazarus, he's my buddy, my pal, my friend and companion. Sometimes I suspect that he's also an angel.
     
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    They are truly a gift from God. I have 2 new kittens, 7 week old sisters. :love2:
     
  14. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,879
    Likes Received:
    0
    I like cats. They have a special flavor.
     
  15. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. JJump, I use ME as an abbreviation, but by all means, I mean no disrespect. My use of it has nothing to do with emotionalism.

    2. Is there a better term out there to capture the essence of your set of beliefs about the kingdom without you thinking it's derogatory?
     
  16. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with a lot of what you have said here, because you are talking about salvation by grace through faith apart from works, and I'm sure that we would be in almost complete agreement there if not 100%.

    However you deal very little with works.

    So here's a couple of my followup questions for you. Let's say that John is saved at age 12. He lives a "Christian" life until he goes off to college, and then at college he falls into the typical college sin of drunkeness and fornicality. So John goes four years of college without even a second thought regarding his behavior. And let's say that during a graduation party John gets plastered and gets behind the wheel of a car and on his way home plows into a family of four and everyone dies, John included.

    1. Is John saved.

    2. And if John is saved then what happens to John at the JSOC?
     
  17. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes and I have already explained this on a couple of occasions. The doctrine is the gospel of the kingdom. It is also referred to as the word of the kingdom.

    And while you may not directly be using it based on emotionalism there is an indirect impact whether you want it to be there or not. That would be like saying that anti-abortionists has no negative impact to it. If that were so they wouldn't use that term.

    They use it because there is that impact. But it has been used so much now that there probably is a generation of people that don't see the emotionalism tied to the word, but it's still there.

    There are a lot of other "trigger" words that exist like that in our culture.
     
  18. Lazarus

    Lazarus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ro 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not (cat) meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. :tonofbricks:
     
  19. Lazarus

    Lazarus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2007
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Is John saved. Probably Not.

    Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Salvation takes much more then a sinners prayer and no this doesn't involve works but deep seated belief. Without getting technical, I'll just say that without this kind of belief there is no salvation. Many believe and many are preached to that all they have to do is say a prayer and they are saved. But Romans 10:9 says you must believe in your heart.

    2. And if John is saved then what happens to John at the JSOC? If these initials mean Jesus's Second Coming then John has the same problem as everyone else who isn't saved.
     
  20. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    And herein lies the problem. You are basing your answer on John's lack of works for four years in his life, but totally ignoring six years of faithfulness.

    See this shows the folly in following this church tradition. If you don't like someone's actions instead of sharing the Truth of Scripture with them you merely write them off as unsaved.

    What you are saying is that unless you produce the right kind of works then you aren't saved. That is simply a backloaded works-based plan of salvation.

    Eternal salvation is based on your faith in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died on your behalf a sinner. If you believe that you are saved. Everlasting life has just become a permanent possession the very moment you believed and it will NEVER be revoked for ANY reason.

    A person may or may not live a sanctified life after that moment, but if they don't that in no wise cast a doubt as to whether they believed Jesus died for them or not.

    Call it deep seated if you want, but all it takes is belief. Period. End of conversation according to Scripture. If you believe you are saved.

    The Bible doesn't save if you believed you will do x,y,z for the rest of your life. There is simply no Biblical grounds for that church tradition.

    But what you can't doubt is whether or not these people believe whether they say a prayer or not. What is happening here is that people are seeing a problem with the "sinner's prayer," (and I'm not a sinner's prayer guy myself), but instead of returning to the Biblical center those opposed to the sinner's prayer are swinging in almost the opposite direction and saying if you said a prayer you aren't saved or you probably aren't saved.

    That is causing terrible mistakes to be made in regard to eternal salvation.

    If the person believes they believe whether they said the right words or not.

    JSOC - Judgment Seat of Christ But as per your answer to No. 1 you don't even think John will be there despite him being saved at the age of 12 and living a faithful life until he was 18.

    Lazarus I will leave you with this encouragement. I would at least test the church tradition that you have been sold and see if it stands up to the test of Scripture and I think you might be surprised at how much has to fall by the way side. Trust me it's a tough thing to do, but it is well worth it!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...