The Foreknowledge of God and Matters of Morality

Tom, Just a quick note to get some clarification. What is the distinction or difference you see between the word necessity, and “certainty or inevitability?” If there is only one possible consequence to any given antecedent, what freedom or choice can there be in determining the outcome? Is not the outcome in such a situation 'necessity' without possibility of contrary choice? If contrary choice is eliminated, again, how is necessity not invoked and every hint of morality destroyed?

Can God justly blame or praise man for forming intents and subsequent actions when there is no other possibility other than to form those intents and actions, due to the impossibility of contrary choice?

 

HP: I must have worked too many hours today because the ‘thesis’ you posted of Shank’s position doesn’t make any sense to me. I have heard about that book for years but have never read it and do not understand just what his position is. Feel free to try presenting the argument as you would if that in fact was your position. I would be interested to hear it presented by you if you feel you have a good handle on it.

 

HP: I can certainly see why at first glance that might be perceived as the logical end of my argument, but in reality I do not believe such to be the case. I would hope that over time through our discussions that you might eventually view it differently. If you never see it differently I can still be your brother in the Lord. :godisgood:

For what it is worth, let me try and explain how I see the logical ends of what I understand as the logical ends of your position. When I am done, and after you have shared with me as to how you perceive the logical ends of my position, I am certain we will both be sent back to the drawing board for a whole new round of discussion, and certainly we should have much fodder to keep us awake a night or two considering this subject.

As you pointed out the thing that seems to be unsettling to you about my position is that it might appear to you that it breeds possible uncertainty of ones standing before God or at least vacillating stability. If I am wrong about that, you can straighten me out. The funny thing is that such is exactly how I see your position as it is taken out to it’s logical ends. Let me explain.

A person gets saved that believes in election from a Calvinistic position. He believes that in reality when a person gets saved that they come into the understanding that they have been foreordained or predestined to eternal life by God from the foundations of the world. Their salvation is best thought of as 'not when they got saved,' but rather their salvation is best understood as simply 'the time' that they came to a full realization that they have in reality been saved all along, it is just that now they came to understand it for themselves or become cognizant that in reality had been fixed for all of eternity.

Having now this salvation experience, coming into the realization that they have always been one of the elect, they proceed down the path of life again. Some time after, they fall into sin, and resulting condemnation sets into their heart. For a while they try and convince themselves that there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus, but the condemnation is relentless. They end up discouraged due to the knowledge that there life is not consistent with their faith, and end up falling by the wayside discouraged.

They are now in a real pickle. When the alter call is given they know in their heart that they need to get right with God, but they do not know what they should testify to. If they were really saved there should have been no condemnation, which they know in reality they certainly have, so they cannot testify that they were saved. They know they cannot say they fell from grace and needed to be resaved, for that is not believed possible in the Church they are in attendance to, so we hear this strange testimony instead. I have heard those that have been in the Church for years, teaching and even elders and deacons in the church, that stand up after conviction sets in over a besetting sin, and testify like this. “I thought I was saved years ago, but today I realize that I was never saved, but I got saved today!”

I seriously doubt such testimonies, especially in light of the stable character they had for a long period of time and the usefulness and vitality they once possessed. I would rather believe that their testimony is nothing other than the only one that can clear their conscience and stay within the bounds of the accepted dogmas of the Church they are in.

So, with all the security that is preached, and with all the strong unwavering assurance such teaching is supposed to gender, it fails the test once again. Their faith in their security in the end proved to be no security at all. I cannot help but wonder how many times one would have to cycle through like temptations, subsequent condemnation for yielding to it, and the process of stating once again that this must have been the first time they were saved, (when in reality it might be the second or third time such testimonies have been given) before the feeling of, ‘how can I be any more certain this time that I really got saved that I have been the last to or so times?’ I cannot help but believe that some of them eventually throw in the towel for good, discouraged that the security they tried to have faith in, in the end left them no peace within. Their faith in their security proved to be no security at all.

That is how I see the logical ends of the argument of eternal security based on the certainty of election and the foreknowledge of God being immutable being played out before our eyes. Eternal security can be just as ‘on again off again’ as any notion conceived by those not holding to election from a Calvinistic position. I personally witnessed the ‘millisecond on again off again effect, so often charged against the Arminian by Calvinists, just as prevalent in reality in Calvinistic circles as in any Arminian circle I have been in.

Now you can set me straight as well if you feel I have misrepresented in any way any position held by yourself or any others.

I believe it is impossible to walk by faith and have absolute knowledge of foreknowledge or election. I also believe that regardless of how God sees the beginning from the end, or who He knows or does not know that will be part of the overcomers in the end, God does not share that absolute understanding with us in this present world. God has withheld such absolute knowledge from us in this present world in any absolute sense. Whatever absolute knowledge God possess can only be realized by us 'by faith' as we are found walking in consistent obedience to His commands. We are not told to relax, OSAS is in effect, but are told instead to make our calling and election certain, and to check ourselves to see if we are of the faith. Our full assurance of our final standing before God can only realized in a consistent manner as we walk consistent righteous lives before Him as we obediently and daily yield ourselves in obedience to His commands, relying on the power and help of the Holy Spirit to live such consistent lives.

Any hope of our final standing with Him, while in a state of disobedience and a conscience not void of offense, is a false hope and will never land one safely into the eternal kingdom God has prepared for those that love and serve Him, regardless of the security one might believe they have in being one of the elect from the foundations of the world.
No belief in God’s foreknowledge of election, allegedly determining for eternity ones standing before God, will ever hold in check the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that faithfully testifies that ones present walk, if not consistently holy, will not safely lead them to the promised land. Nothing other than a consistent holy walk, as testified to our conscience by the Holy Spirit, testifying of a clear conscience before God and man, should suffice any of us in determining our final standing before God hear and now. May we seek and never rest until such a holy walk is a reality made real in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, in and by the help that He has proffered and promised to give.

 

HP: I believe I would agree. None of us know or can know absolutely if we are of the eternal elect……..but by faith. Faith does not speak to that which we know absolutely or that in reality we have seen absolutely, but rather speaks to a hope of things not yet seen. We can believe we see the elect as God see the elect all we want, but again it is only through the eyes of seeing things 'yet hoped for' that we can see it.

I see little benefit, and much evil that can come, from trying to establish dogma via the infinite knowledge of God when we are not in this world privy to see things as He sees them. Talk about His election all you want to, but God tells you that if you desire to be one of them make your calling and election certain, to examine yourselves, to see IF ye be of the faith. It does not say read your name on God’s absolute roster somewhere, or to reason from a foreknowledge that is infintely above your own, but rather to look at your own life, and the intents and subsequent actions that your proposed faith produces to see IF ye be of the faith. Faith without works is dead being alone, and faith in election where there are no works to substanciate ones faith, is dead, and dead faith will not save nor safely guide one to a home in heaven with the Lord. Nothing short of a life lived by consistent obedience to God’s commands should be used as evidence to support ones hope or belief in God’s election 'involving them personally.' Examine yourself is God’s command to us, not ponder or have faith in ones faith concerning His election. His election is what it is, but do our lives show fruits of saving faith is the question. If obedience to God’s Word is not evident, no view on election will prove to be a safe yardstick to judge one own personal relationship with God.

If we do these things, i.e., to examine our own lives in accordance to obedience to God's Word, we shall never fail or be found to be in error as to our standing before Him or our understanding of election in this world from our finite perspective.