The Fundemental problem of sin and essence of salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Jan 26, 2015.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    There are some fundamentals that are being perverted.

    1. Sin spiritually separates a person from God - this is a fundamental truth

    2. God IS life and God IS Light - this is a fundamental truth

    3. The bare essence of salvation is restoration to spiritual union with God that which has been spiritually separated by sin.

    4. The New birth/quickened/regeneration is fundementally the restoration to spiritual union with God that which has been spiritually separated from God.

    True salvation is defined by these bare essential fundamentals of the problem of sin in man since the fall to the present whereby spiritual separation is restored to spiritual union with God. Any FALLEN human being since Adam can only be restored to fellowship with God by spiritual union or else they remain spiritually separated from God and thus under the wrath of God.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jan 26, 2015
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  2. The Biblicist

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    Good, no one has disagreed with these fundamentals. Let's go to the next step.

    1. The act of bringing the separated human spirit into union with the Spirit of God is called "quickening" = making alive. Without this act man is and remains spiritually dead/separated from God - regardless at what period in history this man exists, whether before or after Pentecost. Time does not change or affect this condition.

    2. This act occurs WITHIN man as that is where the spirit of man resides.

    3. This UNION between the Spirit of God and the human spirit is what it means to be "in the Spirit" as the spirit of man and the Spirit of God are UNITED as one.

    4. This act of spiritual UNION is INDWELLING by the Spirit as it is impossible for the Spirit of God (Spirit of life/light) to be in UNION with the human Spirit except WITHIN man where the human spirit resides. Where there is spiritual union there is indwelling by the Spirit of God and where there is no indwelling there is no spiritual union:

    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Rom. 8:9

    5. This act of spiritual union/indwelling is the act of being "sealed" by the Spirit as the Spirit Himself IS the seal who is in UNION with the human spirit.

    CONCLUSION: If you disagree with any step within this post, you are forced to disagree with the premise in the first post because every step is the logical and necessary development of that first premise.
     
    #2 The Biblicist, Jan 27, 2015
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  3. JamesL

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    I disagree with #4 in you original post.

    Regeneration is not fundamentally "restoration to spiritual union with God". That's too ambiguous, too mystical, too vague.

    Regeneration is a specific work of the Holy Spirit, whereby our spirit is CREATED anew. We are washed and cleansed by the blood of Christ. We are made perfect and sinless in our inner man. Sealed, and never able to sin again. We become the righteousness of God.

    Regeneration is a LITERAL work of God, where the blood of Christ is much more effective than the blood of animals.

    The New Covenant, in Jesus' blood, is the literal fulfillment of all those things which were symbolic and "credited" to a man under the Old Covenant.

    How is it that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Because we take off this filthy, sin-wrecked tent, the body.

    All that's left is a perfect, sinless, regenerated spirit.

    Less ambiguity = better understanding
     
  4. Deacon

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    I think you left out most important part - the 'fundamental "good news" solution' - (3 1/2???) Belief in Jesus Christ, who on our behalf, paid the cost for our restoration to occur.

    You don't explain how these are being perverted.

    Rob
     
    #4 Deacon, Jan 27, 2015
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  5. OldRegular

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    Is the union with Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit? I would say Jesus Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Also in point #3 you say
    Do you have any Scriptural support for this.

    I believe the Union between Jesus Christ and the regenerated person is an indissoluble Union but to say they are united as ONE seems to be going beyond Scripture; unless you can show otherwise.
     
  6. PreachTony

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    So after whatever experience of grace you claim, James, you have never sinned since? If this statement is indeed true, then every Christian I know has to question their salvation, because we all admit to being sinners, though saved by grace.
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    Let me say it another way, since that way seems to be a stumbling block for you. Let me say it this way "the act of removing spiritual separation between the human spirit and the Spirit of God is quickening or being made spiritually alive."

    Now, if you agree with that statement, then lets develop that statement a bit further. The human spirit's condition of separation is due to sin is it not? Isn't this spiritual separation due to the fall? Thus the state of the human spirit is a state of spiritual "darkness" or separation from God who is LIFE and LIGHT and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Hence, there is no restoration or union with the Spirit of God without also dealing with this sin condition (state of darkness) of the spirit. Union with the Spirit is the removal of death/darkness/sin as the presence of the Spirit is life/light/holiness. The restoration of the human spirit from this state of darkness to union with God is called regeneration is a creative act of God that removes the state of darkness and deadness of the human spirit by calling into existence LIGHT and LIFE and RIGHTEOUSNESS or a complete transformation into the moral image of God BY UNION with God who is LIFE and LIGHT and RIGHTEOUSNESS. Hence, it is this very union that TRANSFORMS the state of darkness to the state of life, that transforms the state of deadness to the state of life, thus restoring the moral image of God.

    Now, the basis for this restoration by union with the moral image of God and thus LIFE and LIGHT of God is the redemptive work of Christ as declared in the everlasting gospel of the everlasting covenant (Heb. 13:20).

    It is word of the gospel, that God makes His CREATIVE word in calling into existence LIGHT/LIFE/RIGHTEOUSNESS in the heart by divine fiat (2 Cor. 4:6; 1 Thes. 1:4-6). This creative act is the act of transforming the human spirit from the condition of sin (darkness) into a state of "righteousness and TRUE holiness" by union with the Spirit of God who IS life, and who IS light and who IS "righteousness and true holiness." The declared gospel word revealed in the heart creates this condition as the declared word of the gospel is at one and the same instant the CREATIVE word that transforms the heart from a state of darkness to a state of light (metaphorical light of knowledge of who Jesus Christ is "in the face of Jesus Christ) which is the substance and hope of saving faith, thus this is the act of God creating a believing heart, as it is revealing Christ as delcared in the gospel within the heart. Thus God has TURNED darkness into light within the heart removing the sin condition which is ceremonially described under the Law of Moses in terms of "washing". Your experience of this creative transformational act is called conversion. If God CHANGES your heart then your heart is changed and that change experience is called conversion.

    Thus the one act of quickening is multi-dimensional in its consequences but still one act - revealing Christ as declared in the gospel as the creative word in the heart is restoring life/light/holiness which removes death/darkness/sin.. The experiential side of this internal created transformation is conversion. If God turns us (regeneration), you are turning (conversion)
     
    #7 The Biblicist, Jan 27, 2015
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  8. The Biblicist

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    The gospel itself is empowered by the Holy Spirit to be that transformational creative word in the heart of the elect. It is both at one and the same time the creative word that speaks light into the existence of a dark heart which is the revelation of Christ in the heart removing spiritual darkness, the very substance and hope of saving faith. That transformational INTERNAL act by God is experienced as CONVERSION which is made manifest by gospel profession. Here is how I say it in my other post:


    Now, the basis for this restoration by union with the moral image of God and thus LIFE and LIGHT of God is the redemptive work of Christ as declared in the everlasting gospel of the everlasting covenant (Heb. 13:20).

    It is word of the gospel, that God makes His CREATIVE word in calling into existence LIGHT/LIFE/RIGHTEOUSNESS in the heart by divine fiat (2 Cor. 4:6; 1 Thes. 1:4-6). This creative act is the act of transforming the human spirit from the condition of sin (darkness) into a state of "righteousness and TRUE holiness" by union with the Spirit of God who IS life, and who IS light and who IS "righteousness and true holiness." The declared gospel word revealed in the heart creates this condition as the declared word of the gospel is at one and the same instant the CREATIVE word that transforms the heart from a state of darkness to a state of light (metaphorical light of knowledge of who Jesus Christ is "in the face of Jesus Christ) which is the substance and hope of saving faith, thus this is the act of God creating a believing heart as it is the act of revealing Christ as declared in the gospel within the heart. Thus God has TURNED darkness into light within the heart removing the sin condition which is ceremonially described under the Law of Moses in terms of "washing". Your experience of this creative transformational act is called conversion. If God CHANGES your heart then your heart is changed and that change experience is called conversion.
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Jan 27, 2015
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  9. The Biblicist

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    In both the Old and New Testaments the Spirit is called the "Spirit OF CHRIST" because the Holy Spirit is administering regeneration in direct relationship to the redemptive work of Jesus Christ (1 Pet. 1:11 "the Spirit of Christ which was in them" and Acts 10:43)

    If you accept the concept of spiritual "union" as the solution to spiritual "death" defined as spiritual "separation" or if you accept the concept of "union" being the reverse to being "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) than the only Biblical expression for such a concept is "IN the Spirit" and thus "IN" union with the Spirit who IS life and who IS light and who IS holiness. Thus we are made partakers of the divine nature in the sense of being brought into spiritual union with LIFE and LIGHT and HOLINESS.

    I am not saying they are united in the sense of "one" person or "one" spirit as God cannot be replicated. I am saying that the abiding presence of the Spirit of God with the human spirit in man unites the spirit of man with the LIGHT/LIFE/HOLY image of God (Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24). This is what it means to be "IN the Spirit" or existing in this relationship with the Spirit of God who IS LIFE/LIGHT/HOLINESS. Removal of the Spirit from the spirit of man is the removal of LIGHT/LIFE/HOLINESS and thus reverting back to spiritual separation/death. Thus indwelling is the essence of eternal life, without which there is spiritual separation/death.
     
    #9 The Biblicist, Jan 27, 2015
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  10. The Biblicist

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    The gospel empowered by the Spirit of God as His creative Word is the LIGHT/LIFE/HOLINESS revealed in the heart which removes darkness/sin/separation.

    It is the revelation of Christ in the heart. It is the removal of darkness/sin/ from the heart. It is the abiding state of LIFE/LIGHT/HOLINESS that reverses spiritual state of DEATH/DARKNESS/SIN of the spirit transforming it into the "image of God" (Col. 3:10/Eph. 4:24/2 Cor. 3:3; 4:6).

    I am not saying the Spirit of God and the spirit of man are united in the sense of "one" person or even "one" spirit as God cannot be replicated. I am saying that the abiding presence of the Spirit of God with the human spirit in man unites the spirit of man with the LIGHT/LIFE/HOLY image of God (Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24). This is what it means to be "IN the Spirit" or existing in this relationship with the Spirit of God who IS LIFE/LIGHT/HOLINESS. Removal of the Spirit from the spirit of man is the removal of LIGHT/LIFE/HOLINESS and thus reverting back to spiritual separation/death. Thus indwelling is the essence of eternal life, without which there is spiritual separation/death. Hence, where there is no indwelling presence of the Spirit of God there is no LIFE/LIGHT/HOLINESS and therefore such are "NONE OF HIS" - Rom. 8:9
     
  11. JamesL

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    You're looking outwardly, I'm speaking inwardly. You're also looking at behavior, I'm talking about being healed. Being cleansed. Then sealed.

    Paul said TWICE in Romans 7...it is no longer I who do it, but sin in me; that is, in my flesh.

    Then asks "who shall save me from this BODY of death?


    Regeneration is the inner man. If regeneration is not literal, then why all the fuss about the blood of Christ being better than the blood of animals? Better ministry?

    Why are we told explicitly in Hebrews 9-10 that the blood of animals could never remove sins, could never perfect the worshipper, and told explicitly that Jesus' blood removes sin, and that He has forever perfected those who are sanctified?

    Heb 11:39-40 also tells us that the aforementioned saints died, having not received the promise...so that they would not be made perfect without us.

    Keep reading the next chapter, where in 12:22-24 it is said "you have come to the holy mountain...and to the spirits of just men made perfect"

    Also, 1John 3:9 says the one who is born of God is not able to sin. Why would he say that right after saying if we confess our sins.....?
     
    #11 JamesL, Jan 27, 2015
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  12. The Biblicist

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    James, I don't want to make this anything personal, or needlessly offend you but I need to ask you some questions.

    1. Do you believe we are LITERALLY washed in the LITERAL blood of Christ OR is the Levitical ceremonial language that metaphorically refers to the RIGHTEOUS LIFE OF CHRIST as under the Levitical law of sacrifices shedding of, and offering "blood" of a sacrifice symbolized the LIFE being given, a life "without blemish or spot" and thus a RIGHTEOUS LIFE, thus this is a metaphorical way of saying the RIGHTEOUS LIFE OF CHRIST satisfied the law's demands against us.

    2. Do you believe we are literally externally washed in Christ's blood or is this ceremonial langauge taken from the Levitical Law to represent the INTERNAL removal of a defiled conscience (Heb. 9:14) by the gospel knowledge that Christ's life and death satisfied the penalty of sin in our behalf and thus removes any guilt from the conscience? Thus, this is what you mean when you say by the blood we are made "the righteousness of God"??




    I agree. However, this is precisely how I am defining regeneration/spiritual union as the LIFE/LIGHT/RIGHTEOUSNESS of God removes the DEADNESS/DARKNESS/SINFUL condition of the human spirit.


    I agree. That is precisely how I am defining regeneration as a singular creative act of God in regard to our spirit with multi-dimensional consequences.

    However, I am speaking of the spirit of man in distinction from the soul of man. The expression of the soul of man is the external life of words and actions. The soul is not the object of new birth but the spirit of man (Jn. 3:6) as salvation begins with the "spirit" (1 Thes. 5:23) not the soul of man.
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Jan 27, 2015
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  13. The Biblicist

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    Salvation is the response by God to the Fall in Genesis not on the day of Pentecost.

    The nature of the fall in Genesis dictates the nature of salvation as it is salvation from the fall.

    Hence, if the fall is defined as SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God then the nature of salvation is at minimum to reverse that condition.

    If man is spiritually separated from God he is spiritual separated from LIFE/LIGHT/RIGHTEOUSNESS all of which God IS. Hence, salvation must at minimum consist in restoring fallen man to LIFE/LIGHT/RIGHTEOUSNESS or there is NO SALVATION at all.

    The POST-cross/Pentecost theory is in reality a repudiation of salvation in regard to its minimum essence prior to the cross, because if fallen man prior to the cross remained in spiritual separation from God (separated from LIFE/LIGHT/RIGHTEOUSNESS) no other aspect of salvation is possible!



     
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  14. JamesL

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    Not a washing of the body in Hebrews 9:14. There are 2 accomplishments stated in this passage:

    First, what the blood of animals could not do - Could never remove sins (Heb 10:4) and could never perfect the worshiper (10:1).

    Contrasted against that, we are told explicitly that Jesus came to remove sins by His sacrifice (Heb 9:26). Also, it is said that by a single offering He has forever perfected those who are sanctified (1:14)

    A cleansing of our spirit. Heb 12:22-24 says "you have come to the holy mountain...and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect."

    The reason Hebrews 9:14 mentions the conscience is explained in 10:1-2

    "Since the Law is a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who approach. Otherwise, would they not have ceased being offered, since the worshipers, cleansed once for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sin?



    I think you and I are in substantial agreement
     
  15. JamesL

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    I believe the metaphors and symbolism ended when the perfect sacrifice of Christ was made. There is a literal cleansing of our spirit - once

    Does this "literal" cleansing mean that the Holy Spirit is carrying around a small bucket of Christ's literal red blood?

    Honestly, I don't see anything in scripture of HOW the blood of Christ removes sin, cleanses us of sin, perfects us, or anything of the sort. How does the Holy Spirit cleanse us using the blood? I won't pretend to know.



    Not a washing of the body in Hebrews 9:14. There are 2 accomplishments stated in this passage:

    First, what the blood of animals could not do - Could never remove sins (Heb 10:4) and could never perfect the worshiper (10:1).

    Contrasted against that, we are told explicitly that Jesus came to remove sins by His sacrifice (Heb 9:26). Also, it is said that by a single offering He has forever perfected those who are sanctified (1:14)

    A cleansing of our spirit. Heb 12:22-24 says "you have come to the holy mountain...and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect."

    The reason Hebrews 9:14 mentions the conscience is explained in 10:1-2

    "Since the Law is a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who approach. Otherwise, would they not have ceased being offered, since the worshipers, cleansed once for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sin?



    I think you and I are in substantial agreement
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    Both baptism and the Lord's Supper are gospel symbols equally as those under Moses, except the Mosaic look forward to the cross whereby the cross fulfilled their forward expectation, but baptism and the Lord's Supper look backward to the cross and forward to the Second Advent.

    Neither pre- or post- cross symbols literally cleanse anyone of from sin and where "never" (Heb. 10:4) designed by God to literally cleanse your spirit or conscience or body or anything else about from sin - they are all simply symbols of what does literally cleans from sin BEFORE and AFTER the cross and that is faith in what they symbolized the redemptive work of Christ in connection with spiritual union whereby our spirit is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    1. Old Testament literal cleansing - Acts 10:43; Rom. 4:7-8
    2. New Testament literal cleansing - 1 Pet. 3:21

    Again, "the blood" has reference to the Levitical sacrifice and the SYMBOLIC giving of the whole spotless sinless life of a substitute for the sins of others. To be "washed in the blood" of Christ merely means that we have trusted in the substitutionary life and death of Jesus Christ for our sins. That is why the conscience is cleansed by the blood, because it is the MESSAGE of the gospel that is received by faith which removes the guilt of sin from the conscience in connection with spiritual union that imparts the righteous nature of God to our spirit.
     

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