The Galatians fight back

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Can you imagine would it would have been like if Paul had written the letter to the Galatians to a Calvinist congregation?

    The Letter of the Galatians to Paul

    The Elect of Galatia, predestined to be born anew monergistically by God through the particular redemption of his Son, effectually called and secure in Christ forever.

    To Paul, alleged apostle of Christ. Grace and peace to you.

    We are astonished and amazed by your last epistle which came to us with great joy. But alas! Upon reading your message, our joy is turned into great sorrow. You warn us the Elect that we may not enter the kingdom of God unless we do as you say? How can you say such things to the elect of God! Do you not know that we are chosen by Him for heaven? You warn us that God cannot be mocked and that we will reap what we sow! From where do these words come? Do you not know that we are predestined for the kingdom of heaven? How can you say that if we sow to the flesh we will reap destruction? Do you not know that we are the elect and destruction is not our destiny?

    I remind you that you said in your letter to us that we had 'began in the Spirit.' You yourself reminded us that miracles were done among us through Him supplying the Spirit to us. You yourself reminded us that we are sons of God having been clothed with Christ and because we are sons of God, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts who cries 'Abba Father.' You yourself reminded us in this selfsame letter that we had been set free and were children of the promise. In this way, you yourself admit that we were born anew.

    And now you warn us that we might not enter the kingdom of heaven and we may rather reap destruction based on our behavior rather than God's election?!?! How can you tell such a bold lie dear Paul? For do you yourself not know that we who are saved cannot possibly end in the flesh? Do you not know that it is impossible for us not to enter the kingdom of God, we who have began in the Spirit? What sense can your words ever make to us? For we all know that those who have been born again (and you have attested that we were), cannot escape entering the kingdom of God. For God chose us to heaven and our behavior between now and then cannot change our destiny since it was determined before the creation of the world. Are you not aware of five point Calvinism?

    There, we can only hope that your letter is a result of drinking too much of that Macedonian wine dear friend. Else we fear that you were never saved in the first place and we wonder how it is that you brought us new birth. We can only pray that no unsuspecting men consider your letter to the Galatian church as inspired by God. For it is impossible for us who were once born again to end up in any other place than heaven and such warnings to us that the born again might not enter the kingdom have no partnership with reality. Your letter cannot be the word of God.

    Can you imagine preaching Paul's inspired message to Calvinists? Imagine how Calvinists would react if you wrote a letter like Galatians and warned them they would not enter the kingdom of God if they continued in their present behaviour. They would reject the message because they do not believe that not entering the kingdom is a possibility. Thus we must ask, "Do they nullify the word of God, as preached by Paul, for the sake of their tradition?"
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Don't have to imagine it. We can actually read it.

    Don't have to imagine it. We can read all about it in Paul's letters.

    I don't know any Calvinist who would agree with this. In fact, the fifth point is "perseverance of the saints." It means that the saints will finallyy persevere in faith and obedience. They will not enter the kingdom continuing in ungodliness. Their continuance in ungodly behavior is evidence that they are of the flesh, not of the Spirit, a point that Galatians makes quite well.
     
  3. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    PL, please explain why Paul would warn those sons of God who had began in the Spirit at Galatia, that they would reap what they sow and if they sowed to the flesh they would not enter the Kingdom of God but reap eternal destruction.
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Larry;
    Would you agree that when we sin we are denying God?
    Mike
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Because it was possible that not all had the Spirit and were truly born again. That is the point of the warnings. They are evidences of being born again. Is this really that unfamiliar to you?

    To a degree, yes.
     
  6. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Because it was possible that not all had the Spirit and were truly born again. That is the point of the warnings. They are evidences of being born again. Is this really that unfamiliar to you?[/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]And so when Paul says that those who had began in the Spirit were ending in the flesh, he was not talking about the same people that he was talking about when he made the warning about not entering the Kingdom of God right PL?

    PL, please think your responses through more carefully. I am well aware of all these Calvinist contrivances like this and am prepared for such repsonses like this.

    To a degree, yes. [/b][/QUOTE]

    How much of a degree?
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    With in the church at Galatia, there were likely both kinds of people. He warns them, as other authors do, about their spiritual state and the necessity of continuing in teh faith. Continuing is hte evidence of being saved.

    You haven't even challenged me to think yet. This is all so old and tired I don't even have to think about it.

    You give much evidence that you don't even know what Calvinism teaches, much less how to answer the responses.

    Depends on the sin, the circumstances, and the heart.
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    I wouldn't agree that us sinning is denying God, I would say that is disobeying God. No one who has faith in God can deny God! And those without faith don't care either way.
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Sin is denying God in the sense that it hides our testimony, just as surely as PEter hid his. It denies the holiness of God by those of us who follow him not properly reflecting him. It is also disobeying God.
     
  10. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Pastor Larry,

    Notice the following and please identify for us the identity of the people "YOU" in the following verses:

    To the churches of Galatia.... I am amazed that YOU are so quickly deserting Him who called YOU

    YOU foolish Galatians, who has bewitched YOU,

    Having begun by the Spirit, are YOU now being perfected by the flesh?

    For YOU are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

    And YOU brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

    YOU were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

    I warn YOU, just as I have warned YOU before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Do you really expect people to believe Paul is suddenly speaking to a completely different "YOU" when he arrives at Galatians 5:21?
     
  11. Doubting Thomas

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    Another classic, Ben. Keep'em coming [​IMG]
     
  12. rc

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    There's tares among the wheat Ben. Did you want Paul to name individually those who were being legalistic and preaching another gospel? ... You know, like people on forums that teach other gospels? ... Trying to teach that man has to do things for salvation? Like say a prayer? Walk up an isle? Raise a hand? Choose? .. That letter is still very relevant for today indeed.

    Post Tenebras Lux
     
  13. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    I am still waiting for a Calvinist here to explain where he got his inside information that Paul was speaking to two different sets of people at different times in this letter and how you know when he was speaking to one group as oppposed to the other.

    Put another way, when you write a letter to someone and use the word YOU, is it not reasonable that it refers to the object audience and not whoever someone would like it to be identifying?
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    This is so simple. The "you" is hte church at Galatia. As we all know, churches are gathered on the public profession of faith. As we all know, all public professions are not true salvation. It is very clear why Paul does what he does. It is all over the NT. Galatians is no exception.
     
  15. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    And would you agree the church of Galatia to whom Paul is speaking are those "sons of God," "children of the promise," and those who had "began in the Spirit?"

    I warn YOU, Church of Galatia, just as I have warned YOU before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    So then PL, WHO exactly was Paul warning?
     
  16. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    See my above post where I explained it clearly and biblically. The answer hasn't changed.
     
  17. Ben Elohim

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    So far all you have said is that we are supposed to imagine that there were some non-regenerate people in the Galatian church and you have some inside information that this is who Paul was speaking to when he gave his warning about not entering the Kingdom of God.

    Where is your evidence that this is who Paul was talking to and why should we believe that he was talking to born again believers in this letter but was suddenly speaking to unregenerate people in at Galatians 5:21? Where is the evidence for this claim of yours?
     
  18. rc

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    Ben, Where is your evidence that Paul was speaking only to the truley saved, and that every single individual in that church was born again? Again you are argueing from a foundation that hasn't even been properly established yet. Why should Larry or anybody else for that matter waste there time on agrueing strawmen?
     
  19. Ben Elohim

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    I have aosolutely NO REASON whatsoever to suppose that Paul is speaking to anyone else but who he identified that he was speaking to and EVERY REASON to believe he is speaking to those he identified he was speaking to. A letter is TO someone and so when he says "YOU" in the letter it is common sense to understand he is speaking to the people to whom he wrote the letter. Paul identifies just WHO he is speaking to many times and in many ways in this letter. Yet, you would have us believe that we should imagine that he is speaking to someone else altogether when he gives his warning.

    So what are YOUR reasons?
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    I have no inside information. All you need to do is read the text. He warns people about what unbelief looks like, even when people have made a profession.

    Right in the text that Paul gave us. Read it and study it.

    Right in the text (you seeing a pattern here??? ... when you study the text, you don't have to ask these questions). It is clear that in Gal 5:19-21 he is describing works of the flesh. It is interestig to not that he doesn't actually say there are any in the churc like that. He merely warns about what it looks like. But it is not unbelievable that in every local church there were mere professors who didn't have true faith. They were imposters such as John describes in 1 John 2:19. This is a well known fact of Scripture. Why are you unfamiliar with it?
     

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