The Gathering of the Church/the Rapture

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ray Berrian, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    The Lord's promise was that He would return for His church. [Acts 1:11] The Apostle Paul does not contradict what Luke wrote down in the Book of Acts. Paul says, that one day in the future Jesus will come to the region of the clouds to receive His people into Heaven. [I Thessalonians 4:16] Some confuse the fact with the truth by saying there will only be the Second Coming to judge everyone at the same time and event. God speaking through the great Apostle Paul indicates that when He comes for His people it will only be for the ' . . . dead in Christ, plus the living saints at His appearing. The term 'in Christ' is an endearing word for Christians, not evil unsaved souls. You do not have to be a Rhodes scholar to understand this; it's not rocket science.

    The wicked dead will be raised from their graves at the closing of human history after the theocratic reign of Christ on the earth. [Revelation 20:5] That reign will last for 1,000 years and it will not be long after the Millennial reign until Jesus will judge all sinners {not saints/Christians} at the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11] Jesus will not judge sinners in the middle of his eschatological plan, otherwise, a vast multitude of millions on millions of sinners would escape any judgment at all.

    After the gathering of saints into Heaven, Jesus will judge Christians even without one sinner peeping into the scene into God's Heaven. [II Corinthians 5:10 & Romans 14:10 & I Corinthians 3:11-15] No sin or sinner will ever experience the felicity, meaning they will never see even for a second, the pomp and circumstance of the glories of Heaven above.

    Notice this fine and most often missed point. The Great White Throne Judgement is only for sinners is not set up either in Heaven or on this earth. When they are raised from their graves after the theocratic Kingdom, which is on earth, God Almighty says that 'earth and Heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.' [Revelation 20:11] These are not merely poetic words. This judgment of the wicked will take place somewhere but not in our realm or in Heaven. [Revelation 20:11b,c]

    This is why the Rapture [I Thessalonians 4:13-18] and the Second Coming of Christ [Revelation 1:7 & Revelation 19:11-21] are dissimilar, future, eschatological events. Soon the Rapture will take place and the Second Coming of Christ will follow, after the Great Tribulation era of seven frightening and bloody years. [Daniel 12:1-2 & Matthew 24:21] Christians will be martyred. The method of the antichrist in killing [Revelation 13:15c] the saints/martyrs will be by 'beheading' them. [Revelation 20:4d]

    Those who love and follow Jesus will escape this unprecedented time. [I Thessalonians 5:1-11. 'God has not appointed us to wrath . . . . {so whether} we wake or sleep, we will live together with Him {Christ}.

    Ray Berrian, Th.D.
     
  2. MEE

    MEE
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    Hey Ray, wouldn't touch this one.... but wait until I get some popcorn and a big cold classic coke! OK, now let's get started! This should be interesting. :cool:

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Mee,

    I think you are correct. God's story of humankind is His theatrical presentation. His stage is our world on planet earth.

    Hope you don't choke on your popcorn when He takes us in the rapture, if He comes while we are living here on earth. I think He can trust you with Coke.

    By the way I like your humor.

    Berrian
     
  4. Jude

    Jude
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    The Book of Revelation was a vision for St John's time. It's message to the Church is to encourage faithfulness in a time of persecution. It warns against 'lukewarm' or 'shallow' faith or apostasy, and holds-out the promise of Eternal Life to those who are faithful to the end. It is NOT a vision of 'black helicopters' or the 'European Common Market' or a Russian invasion of Israel in our day. The millenium described in Chapter 20 is the entire Church age, not some literal 1,000 year reign of Christ at the end of human history, followed by yet another 'rebellion' quickly quashed. Don't get me wrong. I believe in the 2nd Coming of Christ. But 'pre-millenialism' is wrong.
     
  5. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Jude,

    You said at the beginning of your post that 'The Book of Revelation was a vision for St John's time.'

    You are partially right. Revelation chapters one through five deals with the Seven Churches of Asia, and John's vision of Heaven and the twenty-four elders and so on. I am sure you have studied them many times.

    Chapters four through twenty-two deals with the Great Tribulation-with its Seal, Trumpet and Vial judgments, 144,000 Jewish witnesses to the entire world, the witnesses of Elijah and Enoch in chapter eleven and their ascension into Heaven, [vs. 12]. The unholy trinity of chapter thirteen, Satan, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet. This one world leader, the antichrist will cause those left after the Rapture to take the mark in the forehead or the right hand. [vs. 16] Mystical Babylon-Rome falls under the power of the antichrist in chapter fourteen.

    Jude, even former President Reagan spoke of the future Armageddon as referred to in Revelation chapter sixteen.

    Chapter seventeen deals with Apostate Christendom, clergy and laity who will remain on the earth after the Rapture, [I Thess. 4:16] who will either take the 'mark of the beast' and go to Hell, or will not take the mark in the forehead or right hand and will be beheaded. [Rev. 13:15 & 20:4d]

    Chapter nineteen deals with the Second Coming and the Lord's returning with His people and the terrible death and destruction that will take most of the wicked people of the stage of human history.

    The thousand year theocracy which you deny will take place is repeatedly affirmed in the first seven verses of chapter twenty.

    The resurrection of the unjust/sinners/all lost souls will take place after Christ's reign of 1,000 years on the earth. [20:5]

    The War of Gog and Magog is earmarked in chapter twenty, along with the Great White Throne Judgment of the wicked.

    The New Heaven and the New Earth are found in chapter twenty-one along with the Holy Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven with exact measurements of the city. There will be no need of a Temple because the Lord will be on the earth at this time. [21:22] The description of this place is evaluated in chapter twenty-two, along with a listing of those who will never enter into God's greatest experiences.

    I also believe in Revelation there is also the Marriage of the Lamb and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb spoken of in this book of the Bible.

    I guess part of the reason that you expel these future events from your mind and heart is because John Calvin did not exegete the Book of Revelation. He was an Amillennialist and believed in only one final judgment and could not possibly have explained the aforementioned deepest truths of the Book of Revelation. Being brought up in a strict Roman Catholic home and church he did not drop much of the error of this ancient church. It is good that Calvin never tried to explain the Major and Minor prophets or he would have done another disservice to the Christian church.

    It is nice that you believe in the Second Coming of Christ, but you need understand the vast amount of truth that you have ignored. In your mind has the 'mark of the beast' taken place yet?

    Christian historians never have spoken or penned words to the effect that the antichrist placed a mark on the right hand or the forehead of anyone to this point of human history.
    [Revelation 13:15-18] While it is stated in the N.T. that many antichrists have gone out into the world, yet the concluding Antichrist is waiting in the wings, when the Great Tribulation will begin to unfold the ultimate tragedy of God's human history.

    As clergy were are responsible to preach 'the whole counsel of God' and not just the future Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

    If you are going to be fair to our readers you must explain how and when all the above events took place in past history. There is your challenge. My guess is that you will not attempt to explain each of the Lord's future events of human history.

    Regards . . .
    Ray
     
  6. MEE

    MEE
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    Ray, since I didn't explain what I believe, I think you did an excellent job of explaining it for me.

    The reason I said what I did was because I've heard everything imaginable, about the return of our Lord. So, I just thought I'd sit back and see if there is anything new.

    Anyone want some popcorn? You have to bring your own coke. :D

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  7. Gina B

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    Where did that come from, and what's it have to do with it?

    You're not going to get anyone who will post more than a few words debating this, and it will be something to the effect of "nuh-uh".
    I've tried a few times over the last few years and that's about as strong as the counter-argument gets.
    Gina
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    Gina L,

    Thanks for your explanation of your thoughts. Appreciate it. I also have noticed that a couple of times I have placed a new topic called, "Christ's Intercession." It makes me wonder why no one has any thoughts on this fact that Jesus is ministering for His people. I guess it is like 'a dark hole' in the universe.'

    I previously said, 'Anyway, you said, 'I guess part of the reason that you expel these future events from your mind and heart is because John Calvin did not exegete the Book of Revelation.'

    Gina said, 'Where did that come from, and what's it have to do with it?'

    Ray is saying, 'If I recall properly "Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion" ignored the Book of Revelation and I think one other N.T. book of the Bible. If I am wrong on this idea I am sure a Calvinist will correct me rather quickly.

    You said, ' . . . and what's it have to do with it?'

    Ray is saying, 'In order to understand God's plan for the ages a student has to study and come to an understanding of the Book of Revelation. Some Christians believe that this age is the Millennial Age and things will continue and then immediately the Second Coming of Christ will take place and the one big grand event called the Last Day, or the Judgment of sinners and saints all at one time. This one sentence theology hardly deals with the unique events that Revelation calls us to understand, that I have jotted down in my former post.

    With wise men of God like Drs. Walvoord, Ryrie, J. Dwight Pentecost, J. Randall Price, Timothy Demy, C. I. Scofield and Thomas Ice who is executive director of the Pre-Tribulation Research Center in Washington, D.C. He holds an advanced degree from Dallas Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. from Tyndale Theological Seminary and is the author of many books.

    Dr. Price book is "Jerusalem in Prophecy" and has lived in Jerusalem and has done graduated studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

    Drs. James M. Gray, former Presidents of Moody Bible Institute, Merrill C. Tenney, Lewis Sperry Chafer-former President of Dallas Seminary who wrote a seven volume called, "Systematic Theology."

    Another book that fleshes out the Book of Revelation is "Prince of Darkness" written by Grant R. Jeffrey who also believes in Pre-Tribulation-Pre-Millennial truth. I believe Dr. Jeffrey is a Canadian.

    I too, Dr. Berrian, the least of the above people, believe in the full content of the Book of Revelation and the Apostle Paul's belief that Christ will take the church to Heaven at the Rapture, [I Thess. 4:16] which is the next major event in God's historicity of humankind. Remember only the 'dead in Christ' and living Christians will go to be with Jesus forevermore. [4:16 d,e] None who have died 'in Satan' [I John 3:12 a,b] or sinners [I John 3:8] {notice the Greek word, (poiwn} who are living at the time of the Rapture will go to be with the Lord for any alleged final judgment at this future event in time. This Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:11]will take place after Christ's reign on the earth for 1,000 years. Verse five says and ' . . . the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1,000 years were finished.' The New Century Version says, 'The others who were dead did not live again until the thousand years were ended.' The New International Version says, 'The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.'

    My point is if Calvin did not understand and others today still do not understand the Book of Revelation then it is high time for Christians to give a hearing to those who have been enlightened spiritually as to Jesus' truth for God's people.
     
  9. Jude

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    Revelation 20:1-3 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

    I'm not able to spend a lot of time on this, but let's look at Rev. 20, and the claim by Dr Berrian and others that this will occur during the 'Millenium'. Of course, Dr Berrian will likely point-out that "Satan is Alive and Well on Planet Earth," that evil and anarchy and sin are a part of the sad history of the human race. Here, in chapter 20, we find Satan 'bound'. What does this mean? We should, of course, look to Jesus' words about such a 'binding'. His words would be paramount in any discussion. Every synoptic gospel has the account of the 'strong man' being bound. For example, St Mark,

    Mark 3:25-27
    If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.


    When Jesus came to this earth, He proclaimed that with His coming the Kingdom of God had come. In fact, He 'exorcised' many demons to show that to be true. Satan, the 'strong man' had been seized and bound by a 'stronger Man', namely Jesus Christ. Revelation 20.2 and Mark 3.27 are therefore 'linked' in this way. Of course, Dr Berrian, and others, will point out the following verse as 'problematic'...

    Revelation 20:3
    3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

    They would say, "Jude, isn't Satan deceiving the nations" even now? Yes, BUT...

    Consider what happened when Christ came to this world. 'Wise Men' from the east came to his manger. 'Gentiles' came to understand who He was. He reached-out to Samaritans. A Roman centurion knelt at His Cross and said, "Surely this is the Son of God." Men from 'every nation' are gathered together at Pentecost, and respond to the Good News. Also interesting Jesus' response AFTER Greeks came to enquire about Him...

    John 12:31-32
    Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

    I don't have time to pick-apart all of the 'proof-texts' of the pre-millenialists, at least not now. I can however, with them, say, "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again."
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    Jude,

    You quoted 'Revelation 20:1-3 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having
    the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the
    dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a
    thousand years.He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over
    him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand
    years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short .'

    Ray is saying, 'There are thirty-four references to Satan in the N.T. alone, not counting the terms, Devil, Serpent [Rev. 20:2] or Dragon. [20:2]

    Jude, I am sure you remember the tempter was in the Garden of Eden, a place somewhere near Kuwait; was he not on the earth at the onset?

    Did not Jesus say to Peter while the apostle was on the earth, 'Get thee behind me, Satan?'

    Was not Jesus tempted by the Devil in the wilderness for forty days. [Mark 1:13]

    Jesus said in effect, "I saw Satan falling like lighting from Heaven [Luke 10:18].

    The Bible says, that Satan is the god of this world.

    Satan entered into Judas. [Luke 22:3]

    The Apostle Paul delivered a fallen saint into the hands of Satan for spiritual discipline of that child of God. [I Cor. 5:5]

    Look in Iraq, Iran, Haiti, Indonesia, Africa and other hot spots in our world and tell us that Satan is not the god of this world.


    You said, 'I'm not able to spend a lot of time on this, but let's look at Rev. 20, and the
    claim by Dr Berrian and others that this will occur during the 'Millenium'.

    Ray is saying, 'Only in this one case, at the close of the reign of Christ on the earth Satan is bound for one thousand years, [Rev. 20:3] and is released for a short period of time, which allows for the surrounding of Jerusalem 20:7-9 and the Battle of Gog and Magog. This takes place at the conclusion of the reign of Christ on the earth. And notice how our Lord deals with the situation; He casts the Devil into the Lake of Fire. [vs. 10]

    You said, 'Of course, Dr Berrian will likely point-out that "Satan is Alive and Well on the Earth," that evil and anarchy and sin are a part of the sad history of the human race.

    Ray is saying, Right!


    You said, 'Here, in chapter 20, we find Satan 'bound'. What does this
    mean?'

    Ray is saying, 'Jesus could not have His theocracy on earth if Satan was not bound.'

    You said, 'We should, of course, look to Jesus' words about such a 'binding'. His words would be paramount in any discussion. Every synoptic gospel has the account of the 'strong man' being bound. For example, St Mark,
    Mark 3:25-27
    If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan
    opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact,
    no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless
    he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house.'

    Ray is saying, 'During the age of the church, since the Cross/Pentecost the Holy Spirit also is at work in the world in limiting the Devil's power so sinners can get saved if they receive Christ. [John 1:12] Satan is 'bound' in the sense that his power is not greater than Almighty God's might to get the job done of bringing His people into the kingdom/church.'

    You said, 'When Jesus came to this earth, He proclaimed that with His coming the
    Kingdom of God had come. In fact, He 'exorcised' many demons to show
    that to be true. Satan, the 'strong man' had been seized and bound by a
    'stronger Man', namely Jesus Christ. Revelation 20.2 and Mark 3.27 are
    therefore 'linked' in this way. Of course, Dr Berrian, and others, will point out
    the following verse as 'problematic'...

    Ray is saying, 'No problem; it has been explained in the above paragraph.'

    Revelation 20:3
    3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep
    him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were
    ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.'

    Ray is saying, 'This verse 20:3 has been explained at the beginning of this post.'

    You said, 'They would say, "Jude, isn't Satan deceiving the nations" even now? Yes, BUT...'

    Ray is saying, 'No need for the BUT at all. The Evil One is deceiving sinners 24/7. That is why we need to witness of the fact that Jesus saves, by believing in Him. [John 3:16]

    You said, 'Consider what happened when Christ came to this world. 'Wise Men' from
    the east came to his manger. 'Gentiles' came to understand who He was.
    He reached-out to Samaritans. A Roman centurion knelt at His Cross and
    said, "Surely this is the Son of God." Men from 'every nation' are gathered
    together at Pentecost, and respond to the Good News. Also interesting
    Jesus' response AFTER Greeks came to enquire about Him...'

    Ray is saying, 'I do not get your point above.'

    You used this verse from St. John. 'John 12:31-32 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

    Ray is saying, 'Judgment is coming on all sinners. "The Prince of this world" is driven out because of Christ efficacious death on the Cross. Christ died for our sins [I Cor. 15:3] and when we really believe and trust in Jesus for salvation, Satan no longer has any power to damn us. [Romans 8:1 & I John 5:18] Check translation from Greek on vs. 18, or other translations. Incidentally, "The Prince of this world" is another term used about the Evil One.

    As to John 12:31-32 Dr. Everett F. Harrison says, in "The Wycliffe Bible Commentary" p. 1101,

    'Jesus hour would bring not only suffering for Him but judgment upon the sinful world
    system. The expelled Christ would expel the one who drives men to reject Him {cf. Col. 2:15}. Christ Himself when in apparent defeat, would actually be in position to draw men to Himself by the power of His sacrifice. Glory would triumph over shame. Victory would shine through dark tragedy. All men, Greeks included, would come to know the pull of His redeeming love.'

    You said, 'I don't have time to pick-apart all of the 'proof-texts' of the pre-millenialist's at least not now.'

    Ray is respectfully saying, That even before this post, I said you would ignore all of the future events coming to this world, pinpointed in the Book of Revelation. I do respect your ministry and enjoyed answering your problem about 'the binding of Satan.' The Book of Revelation takes years of study for most people; I am sure you have studied it many times during your ministry. Scholars do a most excellent job as they collate all of the Word of the living God in relationship to the last book of the Bible.

    You said, 'I can however, with them, say, "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.'

    Ray is saying, 'Praise God that you love the Lord and believe in the atonement and cleansing of sins and so many other things that I too believe.'
     
  11. eschatologist

    eschatologist
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    The Bible is a very figurative and symbolic book incorporated with literal meanings and events. This 1000 year reign in Revelation can be no more literal than some of the other biblical usages that demand and are obviously symbolic. For example:

    He remembers his covenant forever, the word he commanded, for a thousand generations(Ps.105:8; see Ex.20:6).

    Does God forget his word and covenant after 1000 generations? No, the answer is that this 1000 is figurative for a complete period of time that is truly longer than 1000 generations(forever). The number 10 in the Bible is associated with a whole complete number, and any multiple of 10 emphasizes its totality and completeness even more. Here is another:


    for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills(Ps.50:10).

    Who out there will argue that there are not more than 1000 hills an this earth? So are the cattle on hills 1001+ not his? Absolutely not! They are ALL his. This is just another symbolic example of the usage of the number 1000. Here it also represents a totally complete and whole number.

    Then many always argue that we have little to no concept of God's time per 2Peter 3:8:

    But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

    Well to those that aver that the 1000 years in Revelation 20:4 must be literal, yet use 2Peter 3:8 to disavow the "soon" and "near" statements in Revelation, where is your consistency in sound biblical interpretation? According to this logic why couldn't the 1000 years in Revelation be just as well 1 day?

    I hope this will give you somthing to contemplate a little. Go with God.
     
  12. Gina B

    Gina B
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    Eschatologist, please read these study notes and notice what is said in regards to time, and why would you disagree.
    GILL'S

    Gina
     
  13. frozencell

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    Here's a novel approach. I think that if we live our lives the way God has intended us to and do everything He commands, then who cares when the end of the world is coming or in what order?
     
  14. Gina B

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    I care.
    And your approach isn't novel, it's same lazy and unbiblical approach all too many take today.
    Many Christians today aren't prepared to deal with any more tribulation than having a gay couple live next door, or being told they can't invite Wal-Mart shoppers to church.
    The only thing they're being prepared for is to be gently whisked away on a fluffy cloud at the first sign of true persecution.
    This is due to faulty teachings about the end times.
    These faulty teachings are keeping Christians from seeking to grow and gain the strength and knowledge that God's army will need to have in the end times.
    Right now we're so pathetically weak most of us are too embarassed to stand up for true bible doctrine amongst others who claim Christ, let alone stand up against false religion.
    If the government wants God erased from everywhere and everything, we meekly obey.
    Some people even say that letting the world get worse and worse and not fighting it will hasten end times. I think if anything it would do the opposite. It makes more sense that God would want to wait for His own to be prepared for His return, rather than think he's waiting for others to be really really really prepared for hell.
    Gina
     
  15. eschatologist

    eschatologist
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    The average Bible student's understanding and concepts of time statements in the Bible vary almost as much as there are denominations within the ecumenical church. We often are reminded of the 2Peter 3:8 verse whenever we are confronted with verse declaring nearness of time in which we have a hard time understanding. This is usually the failure of the student in understanding eschatology as a whole. We often fail to realize how the 1st century audience would have understood such passages. Totally removing or ignoring the original audience from our effort to understand these eschatological passages is bad hermenuetics. And born from this type of study is an array of veiws more numerous than ones own mind can conceive. Here are some of these verses most likely to fit into this misunderstood category:

    Matt.16:28
    Matt.24:34
    Lu.21:20,28,32
    Jo.21:22
    Acts 2:17
    Ro.13:12;16:20
    Heb.10:37
    Jam.5:7-9
    1Pet.1:20;4:7
    1Jo.2:18
    Rev.1:1,3,7;2:16;3:11;22:6,12,20

    These are but a few of the eschatological time statements that, if you can get a handle on your understanding of, the gathering of the saints event will fall right into place. Unfortunately many perfer to go down the path cut by others rather than look at them without influence.
     
  16. mioque

    mioque
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    "Jude, even former President Reagan spoke of the future Armageddon as referred to in Revelation chapter sixteen."
    Ronald Reagan believed that trees caused acid rain. :rolleyes:
     
  17. frozencell

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    I think you missed the point of my post. I don't think God wants us to jsut sit around and theorize about the end of the world. If He had wanted us to concern ourselves with the end so much He probably would have been a little more clear on that matter. But, actually, in contradiction, He said,"You shall not know the time." I think He wants us to be more concerned with the present and the state of the world now.

    In the end times, God's army is going to be spiritual, and at this point I think we'll all have genuine and full understanding after seeing His face.

    Those who say we should try and hasten the end times are the lazy ones, not I. Sitting around and doing nothing is slovenly, one of the seven deadly sins. That's not godly at all, and in no way do I condone such action, or lack thereof.

    My point is that if we are doing what we are supposed to be doing, if we are carrying our God's commandments the way He says to, then we will most certainly be ready, regardless of when and how it happens. Too many people worry if they'll be ready when the time comes. But I urge you to remember this verse.

    Ephesians 6:13 - "This is why you must take up the full armor of God, so that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having prepared everything, to take your stand."

    Get ready now and you'll be ready whenever it happens.
     
  18. Downsville

    Downsville
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    So Ray

    Rev. 20:[11]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Why do you say only the bad guys are judged at the Great White throne?

    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Seems there will be some found written in the book of life.
     
  19. Gina B

    Gina B
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    Frozencell, I hope you realize I didn't mean YOU specifically. I have no clue what your personal life is like.
    I agree that we shouldn't "sit around theorizing" about an actual time. Events and signs are different, and there is abundant information on that in the scriptures.
    Not only that, but that appears to be the main thrust of the Christian life, to be spiritually ready for the end, whatever befalls us.
    Doing what we're supposed to be doing, I agree with that, but more than that we should be seeking that deep and intimate relationship with God, a level of commitment that goes beyond merely making sure we're not doing wrong.
    I don't see that happening in a lot of Christian lives. We don't have many Paul's and David's in our time. We have big churches and nice facilities and nice words but not a lot of people who will stand up and boldly say the name of God, for fear they'll offend someone. That being the case, it's hard to imagine such people being able to handle being jailed, or fined for such. They're not ready to face such actions. It's obvious already, people agreeing with the government in taking prayer or the bible out of schools, agreeing that there's no place for God in public settings.
    That's MY point, and I think we are probably agreeing a lot more than we're disagreeing.
    Gina
     
  20. eschatologist

    eschatologist
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    The Bible does not aver an ending of this literal physical universe, nor is there a literal ending of time. If you believe so please show me these passages that have you convinced otherwise.
     

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