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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dale-c, May 19, 2008.
A closing argument by James White in a debate.
Thanks Dale-c. I watched/listened to the entire (10:13) presentation. It is indeed powerful. Mr. White laid out the biblical view of things.
He dealt with the response I too hear all the time:"If that's the God of the Bible, I won't have anything to do with him."
"You can't choose to be a sheep."James White was right on here!
What is foreknowledge? White said :"He chooses to enter into relationship with love." White's reasoning has nothing to do with looking with God looking down the corridors of time to see what man's response may be.
God is God and we are not. He is sovereign, and we are not.
He owes no one mercy. He does not have to be fair to everyone. Fairness is justice. What everyone desires is mercy. However, God doles it out to those of His choosing.And He hardens those of His choosing. God is our judge-- we are not God's judge. We have no right as worms of the dust to dispute with God about some perceived slight. The Lord has the right to love,pardon and save those whom He desires.
Rippon, some of that sound slike some junk we heard in Su. sch. yesterday.
Lets see, God knows who well accept Him, and He predestines and elects them to be saved, and then they have the choice to be saved or not. Plus a whole lot more, I just can't remember it all.
I just wanted to scream, whose soverign in your salvation, you or God. This just minutes after every one agreeing God is soverign and what that mean.
It just the biggest bunch of junk I've ever heard, you usually don't hear stuff this bad on the BB.
I have been upset, ever since, at the stuff that came from christians.
Like bible study takes too much time!
I would just like to cry hearing this garbage from christians.
I liked his inclusion of Isaiah 63:17a : Why,O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? (NIV)
I'm once saved always saved modified arminian or free gracer (think Ryrie, etc).
My God is totally sovereign in salvation. He sovereignly decided to allow puny humans to accept or reject Him. He didn't ask me if He could or should do that or not. He is sovereign.
He sovereignly paid the price of my salvation. He sovereignly offered me salvation. And He sovereignly made the decision to allow me free choice and the consequences to go with it.
It isn't necessary to be a calvinist to accept the sovereignty of God Almighty.
I don't mind seeing you defend your premise.
"Nail on the head!" Unfortunately, you're the board!! :laugh: God IS just! Therefore, God IS fair. Care to take your foot out of your mouth and try again?? :laugh:
Wow! I was watching the video and I was about to PUKE!! So I suppose Jesus, instead of "knocking," just makes like a SWAT team and breaks down the "door??" No, I assure you. He "knocks" and you better open or else!
I read him in Debating Calvinism matched up against Dave Hunt and he played the "nerd" who is definitely "out of the loop!" John 17 -- Jesus prays for His disciples in the passage White cites. Too bad White doesn't cite the prayer for those who should believe on Me through THEIR [His disciples'] word." ALL one has to do is BELIEVE!!
Is anyone feeling a bit "hornswaggled?" :laugh:
Anything can be proven by taking things out of context. I cannot take credit for the following but would like to say it is right on!! A friend of mine did write the it though. It will take a few post because of the length. I am still new at this posting stuff. Have fun...
Definition: Adoption is a definite act of God whereby God sets a goal for the believer.
Adoption is a subject that has to do with the sovereignty of God. It is a definite act of the sovereign God, whereby He sets a goal for the believer. Man has choice in some subjects, but the ones that we are discussing in this study are subjects that have to do with the acts of God.
What does Adoption mean?
In the Bible it does not mean the same as adopting of a child. There is no word in our language that clearly expresses the thought of the Greek word. Adoption more clearly expresses the thought than any other word but falls short.
Adoption means to be “son-placed,” not “son made.” We are a son of God the moment we are saved by God’s grace. We have certain privileges as sons. God has provided these by His sovereign will for those who are sons. No one has been “son placed” yet. Someday we shall be. We belong to Jesus now as much as we ever will, but we have not arrived at the goal which God has predestinated us to – the goal of adoption. See Eph. 1:5, “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”
Eph. 2:7, “That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in HIS kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.” The unfolding of the riches of His grace will be experienced by redeemed men when we are son-placed.
The Time of Adoption
Rom. 8:23, “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groans within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” We notice that these that Paul speaks to were living in the enjoyment of the “firstfruits of the Spirit.” What does he mean by the “firstfruits?” The fristfruits is pardon, forgiveness, acceptance, security, and sanctification. Adoption is not mentioned among the firstfruits. Adoption belongs to the last fruits of the Spirit. Paul tells us that those who have the firstfruits groan within themselves and wait for something to take place. What is it? What are we waiting for? It is called by the Holy Spirit in this verse the Adoption. HE THEN TELLS US WHEN IT WILL TAKE PLACE. It will take place at the redemption of our bodies. We now have redeemed souls in unredeemed bodies.
Some teach that the new birth and adoption mean the same thing. No, this is not the teaching of the Bible. The new birth takes place when we receive the Lord Jesus as Saviour. Adoption will take place when I receive my glorified body.
The Certainty of Adoption
See Eph. 1:4-5. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” “having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” How can I be sure adoption will take place? Notice our verse above. “Having predestinated us unto the adoption.” Our adoption is in the predestinarian purpose of God. The word “predestinate” always carries with it certainty and surety.
Our adoption is certain since it was predestinated that every believer shall arrive at that goal.
The Desirability of Adoption.
Rom. 8:23, “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” In Romans 8:8-32, Paul speaks about the glory that is to come. He tells us there is something better ahead for the child of God. He tells us in Rom. 8:22 that all creation is groaning also. He says in verse 23, that not only they, but even we, ourselves, groan within ourselves; waiting for, wishing for, longing for, and wanting that better portion that God has provided for His children.
The Present State of Adoption.
Rom. 8:15, “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear: but ye have received the spirit of Adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.” Praise God if you have received the Lord Jesus as your personal savior. We notice from the above verse that the believers in Rome had not only received Jesus but had also received the Spirit of Adoption. The Spirit of Adoption is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is designated by the above verse as the Spirit of Adoption. As a believer, you have not yet been adopted but you do have the Spirit of Adoption.
The Recipients of Adoption.
Gal. 4:5, “To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.” By the use of the word “we,” Paul identifies himself with the believers in Galatia, and we notice that believers are the ones who will be adopted. Adoption belongs only to sons. When you were saved you were made a son. Now because you are a son, you shall be son-placed. You will receive ALL the benefits of being a son. See 1 John 3:2, “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
The One Who Provides for our Adoption.
In Gal. 4:4-5 we notice in these verses that Jesus is the ONE Who secures adoption for us. He made adoption possible. He made adoption possible. On the cross He died to pay for my sins, and when I see Him another great miracle shall take place. I shall be “Son-placed.” When I am son-placed, I will receive a new body. It is future, it is certain, it brings joy. See again Eph. 2:7 and Rom. 8:23.
Definition: Predestination is a divine act of God whereby God makes that goal – (Adoption, or Son-placing) certain for the believer.
Scripture background for our subject is found in Rom. 8:28-30. Let us remember again that we are dealing with subjects that have to do with Divine sovereignty. These subjects have nothing to do with the deliberate planning of man.
Many things have been said about Predestination in sermons, books, and articles. Some of these statements have been made by good men. Yes, godly men have made statements saying that God has predestinated some people to heaven and some people to hell. This is a terrible statement for any man to make, “that God predestinates some people to hell.” I do not believe that this statement is true according to the Word of God. Peter says in 2 Pet. 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Paul says, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” In the light of these verses how can we say God has predestinated some people to hell, and some people to heaven?
The Meaning of the Word Predestination.
What does the word “Predestination” mean? Predestination is made up of two words. The first part is “pre”, which means before, or beforehand. The last part of the word “destination,” which means the end. The little word “pre” has to do with something beforehand. The word “destination” has to do with the farthest extent or end. We understand by this then, what Predestination, according to the precise meaning of the word has to do with: something beforehand and something at the farthest end or termination. Predestination has nothing to do with anything in between. The time is designated by the word “pre” and the farthest extent is designated by the word “destination.” We can illustrate what the word means by looking at an airline ticket. The ticket may say “From new York” “To Chicago.” Nothing is stated about in between.
The Purpose of Predestination.
Turn again to Rom. 8:28-30. “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.” “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.” “Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them he also glorified.”
Verse 29 tells us what the purpose of Predestination is. It is that we might be conformed to the image of His Son. When will this take place? Rom. 8:23 says it will take place when the body is redeemed, and that is the time of our adoption. Eph. 1:5 says, “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”
We are dealing with the purpose of Predestination, and the purpose of Predestination is to bring us to the image of Jesus Christ. Rom. 8:29 declares, “To be conformed to the image of His Son.”
Keep in mind the definition of the word. Predestination is a divine act of God, whereby, God makes that goal, which is Adoption, certain for the believer. The purpose of God in Predestination then is Adoption, and when we are Adopted we shall be Son-placed. When we are Son-placed we shall be like Him, we shall then be in the image of His Son.
The People Who are Predestinated.
Let us now consider the people who are included in the Predestination purposes of God. As we have already mentioned, some teach that God Predestinates some to heaven and He predestinates some to hell. These people use Eph. 1:4 as support.
We must keep in mind that we are dealing with the matter of the people who are Predestinated, and to show you the error of believing that Eph. 1:4 supports the above statement, we need to notice the teaching of Paul in the book of Ephesians in general, which will lead us to a clear teaching of Eph. 1:4 in particular. To understand the teaching of the book, you must understand clearly the mind and purpose of God in the book where the text is found. Here Paul is presenting to us the truth concerning the church in prospect, the church which is His Body. This church is to be made up of believers.
In Ephesians God gives to us the divine blue print of the church. The word church is found nine times in Ephesians, and the word body is also found nine times in this book. In this book Paul is dealing with the church in prospect, the church in prospect is the view of the church as a whole. He is dealing with the church as the body of Christ. In the first three chapters of Ephesians, we have the church as God sees her accepted, and resting in all the merits of the Lord Jesus. In the last three chapters, we see the church as God desires the world to see her. There is only one way in which the unbeliever can see the church, and that is in her walk and work. This presentation is the walk and work of the church as a whole, Eph. 1:4.
Eph. 1:4 is stating that before the foundation of the world, God planned He would have a church. He decided that the church would have its foundation, “in Him.” This was a Sovereign act of God. He is Sovereign. He can do as He likes, and here is one of His decisions before the foundation of the world. He planned for a church which would not have any imperfections. It would be a church designed and completed by His infinite wisdom and His almighty power. God imputed to the church the perfect righteousness of the perfect Son of God.
He also decided before the foundation of the world the Destination of that church. Notice again Eph. 1:4-5. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.” “Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.”
That which is set forth in the book of Ephesians gives to us the destiny of the church which is His Body. He was not dealing with the individual believer in this book, but with the church. In Eph. 5 He has predestinated the church unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ. God is not here deciding the Destination of individuals as individuals, but is telling us that before the foundation of the world he had decided the Destination of the Church. God never predestinated an individual to heaven, and God never predestinated an individual to hell.
Now if you are saved and a part of the church in prospect, the Body of Christ, you are in the predestinated group. You are predestinated the moment you are saved, because that moment you became a member of the Body of Christ. Predestination has nothing to do with unconverted people. It only affects believers. The words “us” and “we” in Ephesians refer to the church which is His body.
Predestination is a divine act of God whereby, God makes the goal, which is Adoption, certain for the believer.
The Partners in Predestination.
Another truth relative to predestination is presented to us in Rom. 8:28-30. V. 29 says, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” Also V. 30. “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Notice the phrase, “whom he…them he also;” “whom he…them he also;”. We see here five things that God has joined together. We have a God-made chain of wonderful truths joined together. What God joins together may we be careful about putting asunder. The five truths are:
God Himself has joined together these great blessings. He so united them together that they are inseparable. No man can put them asunder. They are joined together by His sovereign wisdom and power.
Now if you have experienced one of these blessings you have all five of them, for they cannot be separated. These are the acts of the Sovereign God. God says, “He Who has begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” Phil. 1:6. AS a child of God you do not need to worry as to whether you are predestinated or not. God has settled that in His Word as He deals with the subject of Sovereignty.
The Pathway That Leads to Predestination.
In Rom. 3:28 a man is justified by faith alone. In Romans 4, we are told that man was justified by faith always. Two Old Testament are referred to in the opening of Romans 4, Abraham and David. We notice that men in the Old Testament were justified by faith as they are in the New Testament. Again in Romans 5 we are told that justification is by faith. Rom. 5:1 says, “Therefore being justified by faith. Paul clearly states how men are justified.
The sinner is perfectly and fully accepted by God and justified by faith. The wonderful experience of justification also assures you of the fact that you are predestinated. Justification by faith in the Lord Jesus is the pathway that leads to Predestination. Whom He justifies, them He also predestinates. The very moment that God justifies a sinner, the Spirit of God places him in the Body of Christ, he is in the divine predestinated, corporate group. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A MAN TO BE JUSTIFIED AND NOT PREDESTINATED. A man who has been justified by faith is in the predestinated company.
How can a man be justified? The Apostle Paul says, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” Acts 16:31. Again we read in John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Also in John 1:12, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.” If you believe on Him and have received Him as your Saviour, you are saved.
Definition: Election is a divine act of God, whereby God, for reasons known only to Himself, in the blessing of mankind, sets to one side all firsts, and chooses all seconds.
Election is one of the greatly misunderstood subjects of the Bible, and around this doctrine Satan has thrown up a mirage of doubt and suspicion, and on the other hand he has led some to arrogance and pride. It is not easy to make clear that which has been looked upon as being complex. God has made this subject clear. May we find the illumination of the Spirit of God adequate to make clear to us, that which God has written in His Word.
First notice the Scriptural expression in the Bible, the word “elect” or “election.” The Bible speaks about the elect of God, and God’s elect. Let us remind ourselves that when we read the phrase “God’s elect”, it is not a mere statement of a fact or even of a purpose, but like the Scriptural expression “first born”, it is a title of dignity and that title was only applied to those who were believers. The pre-eminent thought in Election is rank and privilege, not deliverance from damnation or eternal torment.
Let us look at the different phases of truth concerning Election.
The Proposition of Election.
It is a Bible word and therefore demands an interest from all who study the Bible. It is one of the doctrines of the Bible. We should know what the Bible says about it. We must evade establishing our convictions on mere human opinions, while we have before us the possibility of knowing what the Bible says about it. Many Bible students do not know the difference between Predestination, Election, and Foreknowledge, and many do not have a clear understanding of the teaching of the Bible about Adoption. Many use these terms interchangeably. This cannot be done and understand the subject matter at hand.
Let us again notice the definition of Election. Election is a divine act of God, whereby God, for reasons known only to Himself, in the blessing of mankind, sets to one side all firsts, and chooses all seconds. See Rom. 9:11, “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.”
Now let us turn from the proposition of the subject of Election to the problem of Election. Please remember that the subject of Election has its difficulties. This is why there is so much ignorance and misunderstanding of the subject.
The Problem of Election.
Election is one of the unique subjects referred to by the Apostle Paul in Romans 9. This chapter does not teach in its completeness, the subject of Election, it is only referred to in this chapter in verse 11. Election is not God choosing or electing some to be saved and some to be lost. To say that God chooses some to be saved and some to be lost is nothing more or less than hearsay, and is charging God with doing something that He cannot do, because He has provided salvation for every man. To say that God has chosen or elected some to be lost, would limit the atonement of Jesus Christ. That is the work of the devil. The devil tries to limit the work of Christ. This teaching would label God as a respecter of persons, and that leads one to believe that the Holy Spirit only deals with certain people, that is those who are chosen or elected to be saved; and that the Spirit of God never deals with others. If God chose people for heaven or elected them to be saved, and others were chosen for hell or were elected to be lost, then Christ’s death was not for all men.
Some teach that God chooses some toe eternal life and some to eternal damnation. Does Rom. 9:11 teach this? Absolutely not. This verse does not teach that some are elected to heaven and others elected to hell. On the contrary, this verse tells us about the purpose of God according to Election. Now notice Rom. 9:12, “It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger.” It is normal to expect that such words spoken for so definite a purpose would contain some hint or indication of the purpose of God according to Election. We note, “The elder shall serve the younger.” The first born serves the younger. The greater shall serve the lesser. God set to one side the elder or the first and chose the second, or the younger through whom the blessing would come. Now, I want you to notice the portions that are misapplied and misunderstood about the subject of Election.
The Portions Misapplied.
1. Does Rom. 9:15-18 teach some are elected to salvation and some to damnation?
Those who believe that God has elected some to salvation and some to damnation, would say that if there were two brothers in a family, one a believer and the other an unbeliever, that God had mercy and compassion on the one who was saved, but that He did not show any mercy or compassion on the one who was unsaved, should he die in that state. God’s actions are not based alone on His Foreknowledge but are based in the background of His attribute of love. If you will notice in Rom. 9:18 it says in that verse, “therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy.”
Therefore, they would say that if the unconverted brother would die in his sin, God did not have mercy on him. That is a false view of the teaching of this verse. All the truth concerning the attitude of God toward unsaved man is not to be found in one verse. Rom. 9:18 is not the whole of the Bible, neither does it teach all about the mercy of God toward the children of men. What does this verse teach? Is there any hint as to whom God will have mercy upon? If you turn to Rom. 11:32, there will be some light on the subject. We see in Rom. 11:32 the objects of God’s mercy. The verse says, “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.”
How many are the objects and recipients of God’s mercy? The text clearly tells us that He has mercy upon all. God does not have mercy on a few but His mercy is expanded until it reaches all men. God has mercy upon all men and His mercy upon all is according to Rom. 11:32.
Whom does He harden? Rom. 9:17 “For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.”
Those who purposely harden themselves against God. God had mercy upon Pharaoh and that mercy was extended to Pharaoh even while hardening his heart. God’s mercy is upon all. Do not limit it to a few.
2. Does Rom. 9:22-23 teach that God has elected some for salvation and some for condemnation? Let’s see. “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endureth with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.”
Now notice verse 22 speaks about the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. IT is an error to teach that these words refer to limited atonement by saying that God has fitted some people to destruction. God never fitted any man for destruction. God never fitted anyone to be destroyed. It is the Devil who has fitted them for destruction. God endured with much long suffering the vessels who yielded themselves to the Devil. Satan made them vessels of wrath and prepared them for hell.
3. Acts 13:48. “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Does this verse teach that God has ordained some folks to believe and some not to believe? Does this verse teach that some are ordained to be saved and some are ordained to be lost? Notice the context. It teaches that Barnabas and Paul had been preaching the gospel to the Jews. The Jews refused to respond to their ministry. These two servants of the Lord turned from the Jews for the time and proclaimed their message to the Gentiles. Now the context of this passage shows us that God is turning the ministry of these men from the Jews toward the Gentiles. This was in God’s plan. He wanted the Gentiles to hear the Gospel. This text does not teach that God had planned to save just a few of these Gentiles on that occasion. Offering salvation to all Gentiles, some of the Gentiles believed that day what the Jews had rejected.
Dr. Gaebelein in his book on Acts, says, “The Gentiles who were disposed to eternal life believed.” I believe that this is the thought of the passage in the light of the context. The Jews were turning from the Lord and rejecting the truth, so the Lord turns with the offer to the Gentiles. Those Gentiles who were willing to receive salvation, and whose minds were open to the truth, were ready to believe. It is true God had planned to turn to the Gentiles, but not to just a few individuals, as are represented here. This group happened to be a few of the Gentiles who were present, and believed and were saved.”
4. In Rom. 9:13 we read, “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” God did not say this before they were born. This statement was recorded in the last book of the Old Testament. Mal. 1:2-3. Notice the phrase in rom. 9:13, “AS it is written.” It is recorded or written back in the book of Malachi. What do we have there recorded? God’s hatred toward Esau and his descendants. Why did God hate Esau and his descendants? It was because of their continued wickedness and idolatry. This does not refer to individual men (Jacob and Esau), but to the nations which sprang from them.
The People Who Are Elected.
Nowhere in the Bible is Election connected with the salvation or damnation of a human soul. Who are the elect? They are the saved people. His favored ones. Israel in the Old Testament is God’s elect. Isa. 45:3-4 “And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.” “For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.”
The Church which is His Body, in the New Testament. Rom. 8:33 “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.”
In the Tribulation they are Jews or the 144,000. Matt. 24:22-24 “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
This rank, this favor, this privilege, is shown to those people not before they are saved, but after. The word election occurs 27 times in the Bible, and is used in connection with God’s people. A few times it is used relative to the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Purpose of Election.
The purpose of Election is the setting to one side of all that pertains to the flesh (everything that has to do with carnality), and establishing everything that has to do with the spiritual. The most important phase of Election pertains to service. Rom. 9:11-12, “The elder shall serve.” Election has nothing to do with a man’s salvation, neither has it anything to do with his condemnation. The purpose of Election then, is that the first shall become subservient and serve the second. It has to do with Service. It is God’s elect who serve Him.
The Principles of Election.
For the principles of Election, let us turn to some illustrations that are set forth in the Word of God. Notice Heb. 10:9 “Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”
Now we are all familiar with this portion of the Word of God. The closing phrase in verse 9, “He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” Election is a divine act of God whereby God sets to one side all firsts and chooses all seconds. You notice that this is what God is doing according to the teaching of this verse. There were many offerings and sacrifices in the Old Testament, and they were called the “First”, because they were in the Jewish economy. God set them to one side at the beginning of the dispensation of the Church. It was the will of God to set the first to one side and choose for the blessing of mankind, the sacrifice and offering of Christ.
Now let us turn to another illustration of the principle of Election. Notice what it says in Heb. 8:6 “But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.” In verse 7 you read, “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.” You also notice in Heb. 8:13, “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
We find these verses teaching that God has set to one side the first covenant and has established a second one, which he made between Himself and His Son. Election is a Divine act of God, whereby God, for reasons known only to Himself, in the blessing of mankind, sets to one side all firsts and chooses all seconds. He sets to one side the first covenant in the Old Testament economy and chooses the second. Now, notice the principle, being worked out in our own bodies.
1 Cor. 15:38, “But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.” Notice verse 38, “God giveth it a body to - every seed his own body.” Verse 42, “So also in the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption.” Verse 44, “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” So it is written, in verse 45, “The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.” Verse 47 “The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from Heaven.” Election is a divine act of God whereby God, for reasons known only to Himself in the blessing of mankind, sets to one side all firsts, and chooses all seconds. We also have a clear illustrations of the principles of Election in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. Keep in mind our definition of Election that God is setting to one side all firsts, and is choosing all seconds. We see Him here not only setting to one side but, completely destroying the first earth as the abode for eternal blessings. If He declares, in verses 10-12 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elments shall melt away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. “Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness. “Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall melt with fervent heat?”
Then in verse 13, we notice the first promise and establishment of the new heavens and the new earth. That is just another one of the evidences of the principles of Election. The outstanding picture of the principles of Election is seen in Gen. 48:2-20. Notice carefully that Israel blessed Joseph’s two boys, Ephraim was the younger and Manasseh was the elder. In order for the father to put his right hand on Ephraim who was the younger, he had to cross his hands or arms, thereby making a cross. Here is a picture of how we obtain the favors of God’s elective principles. It is by the cross. The old man typical of the old life (Adam’s race), is set aside and the new life in Christ is established as he lays his right hand upon the younger. Because of the cross, we are favored of God. In order to be one of God’s elect you must come by the way of the cross.
As we being the subject of Foreknowledge, let men remind you that we are dealing with subjects that have to do with the Sovereignty of God. None of these subjects are connected with man’s power of choice. WE notice that Adoption is an act of the Sovereign God whereby He sets a goal for the believer. It means to be Son-placed.
Then, we looked at the subject of Predestination, which is also a divine act whereby God makes the goal, “which is Adoption,” certain for the believer. WE who believe shall be Son-placed, because God has before the foundation of the world fixed this destination for us. Election is another definite act of God apart from man’s power of choice. It is an act of God, and that alone. Now we turn to the subject of Foreknowledge. The three doctrines with which we have been dealing, Adoption, Predestination and Election are all acts of God, but when we turn to the subject of Foreknowledge it is not a divine act, but a divine attribute. We now turn to the Bible and notice that Foreknowledge is a Bible subject. We read in Rom. 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
We see that Foreknowledge takes in more than what we read in this verse. Do not limit God’s Foreknowledge to this only, or to Predestination, or to those who would be saved. Since Foreknowledge is a Bible subject and a Bible word, we should understand at least something about the subject as it is set forth in the Bible. It should not be a truth that only one with a scholastic mind and love for theology can read about and comprehend in the college or seminary class room. There must be something about it that is so simple, yet so deep that the humblest believer can get something out of it for his soul. If it is truth, then all believers should be able to understand it in a measure, and then receive something from it that would be a blessing to their souls. We saw that the subjects of Predestination was a Bible subject, and when we turned to the Bible and looked at it as the Bible presents the subject, with its applications and implications, we found a simple gracious truth that was a blessing to our souls. Now again, we need to note something about the subject of Foreknowledge. It is a Bible word. It is a Bible subject. We will now look at the subject with an open mind and an open Bible. We must support our knowledge by the clear Word of God. We want to be Bible Christians. Let us not make difficult that which God has made simple. May I present an outline that will enlighten us as we move up a little closer to deal with our subject?
Its Speculative Interpretation.
Somehow, many people believe that because God knows what will take place, therefore, He is totally responsible for all that does take place. You must keep clearly in mind, that the Foreknowledge of God is not an act of God, but an attribute. The speculative interpretation of this subject is that because Go knows everything, therefore, He can be charged with the act of determining the deeds of men. The fact of God’s Foreknowledge admits that He is unmistakably certain of the clear knowledge of all that will take place, but His Foreknowledge does not determine what takes place. God’s Foreknowledge does not determine all of God’s actions, neither does His Foreknowledge determine the actions of men. Because God knows certain things, it does not necessarily say that God is not in sympathy with it. He knows all wrong things, as well as, He knows all that transpires in the area of righteousness and truth.
ITS SIMPLE DEFINITION.
Foreknowledge is a divine attribute of God, whereby God sees all things in the present tense. There is no past, present, or future with God. Neither time nor space mean anything to Him. “A day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day” (2 Pet. 3:8).
ITS SCRIPTURAL ILLUSTRATION.
Thus far in our study we have been making some definite statements. Now we will turn to the Word of God to find a Scriptural illustration that deals with the matter of the Foreknowledge of God. Ps. 139:1-8. Here we have the testimony of David in these first eight verses concerning the Foreknowledge of God. In verse one David declares that God knows him. In verse two he declares that God knows every thought that is being formed, even before it is expressed in words. He declares in the third verse that God knows the whole conduct of his life and in the fifth verse he reminds himself that god knows him totally, completely, at all times, and in all places.
Sometimes we think we know people. We perhaps have arrived at certain conclusions about people as a result of what we have seen, heard, or read of them and we have a certain knowledge of them. Yet, how limited is that knowledge, and how imperfect it is. God knows and understands clearly their motives, and the things that provokes the act of speech or conduct. In the sixth verse David says, “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me.” When he used the words, “Such knowledge,” he is dealing with the subject of Foreknowledge, which is a divine attribute.
Now let us look at another illustration of Foreknowledge in the testimony of Jesus in John 8:58.
“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
Here we have the Lord Jesus speaking to the Jews concerning His relationship to God the Father and His knowledge of God the Father. He says in John 8:55 “Yet ye have not known him, but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you.”
He was accused of being an ordinary man and therefore could not know anything of their father Abraham. Jesus said unto them, “Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am.” This declares that the knowledge of all things existed before him in the present tense. All of time and eternity was there before the omnipotent God in the person of His Son Jesus Christ. This is possible because of that divine attribute of Foreknowledge, whereby God sees all things in the present tense. Christ was one with the Father.
We have noticed the testimony of David, the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ, and now notice the testimony of the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul in Rom. 8:29-30. “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” “Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Notice that closing statement “whom he justified, them he also glorified.” God speaks of all these transactions as though they had already taken place. Man is called, foreknown, justified, predestinated, and glorified. All these are in the mind of God as in the present tense. God sees our glorification as though it were present and complete. Now, it is not complete in our experience, for we have not yet been glorified. His future for us is present knowledge with God, and He sees the believer’s glorification as though it were in the present before Him.
ITS SPECIFIC LIMITATION.
Let us turn again to Ps. 139. I want you to notice very carefully what David says in verse one. We read “Thou hast searched me, and known me.” Then in verse two he says that God knows his downsittings and his uprisings. He goes beyond that and declares that God understands his thoughts afar off, that is, even before they are uttered. He says that God compasseth his path and is acquainted with all his ways. Every word that is spoken is known to God. He knows the motive in speaking that word. God knows the interpretations of all that spoken word has in it. In verse five David is referring to the Foreknowledge of God. After giving such consideration and that to the extent of the knowledge of God concerning himself, he declares “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.” It is not too wonderful for God but it is too wonderful for David. Notice then, that David states it is a superior knowledge, “It is high.”
He then adds that it is a supernatural knowledge. It is not only high, says David, but it is “so high that I cannot attain unto it.” Now what does he mean? He is dealing with the matter of Foreknowledge, and Foreknowledge belongs to the realm of the infinite. David was only finite and he is dealing with a truth that belongs in the realm of the infinite. Foreknowledge is in the realm of the supernatural. David reveals that we can recognize the Foreknowledge of God, and as we recognize the vastness of the Foreknolwedge it reveals to us our own specific limitations. David says he tries to flee from his past and remember it no more; but someone, and t hat someone is God, knows all about his past, knows all about his future, just as clearly as he knows all about his present. David sees that it is infinite and David believes that it is an attribute of God. To know that God knows, rejoices the believer’s heart.
Now, what is the practical value to the believer, of this doctrine of Foreknowledge? Is there something in it for my soul? We have been saying that God knows all things past, present, and future, and I want to testify that I am glad He does. It rejoices my heart to know that He does, and God wants it to rejoice the hearts of His people. In Job 42:2 we read: “I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.”
This verse shows that God is all powerful. Job believed after hearing God speak in these last three chapters concerning his acts of creation, that God is all powerful. God is all observing, has all knowledge, and all wisdom. God misses nothing. He sees everything. The prophet Habakkuk was glad when he found that God know everything. Read the closing chapter of that book, and I am sure it will be a real blessing to you. God knows the past, present, and t he future. He is a God of love toward His children and wise in His planning for them. God knows all about sin. Is there anything about sin of which God does not have knowledge? Not one single thing. God decided that eternal punishment for sin is just. His eternal wisdom and justice demands that sin be met by eternal punishment. He not only knows all about sin, but knows about Satan, knows his past, present, and future. With all Satan’s tricks and wiles, he is not fooling God. God has devised a salvation that is sufficient to overcome the wiles of Satan at every turn of the road. God’s Foreknowledge is the basis of His perfect plan of salvation. We have a salvation that is “devil-proof,” so that a man can feel perfectly safe when he embraces Christ. God knows all my past. He knows all my present. He knows all my future. With this knowledge He has made a perfect provision. Read Rom. 11:33-36.
PK, so far you have made 7 very long posts of someone's material without due citation. The mods may have something to say about that. I may, or may not, take the time to wade through all of the material you furnished. But couldn't you try to summarize what your own position is in your own words? Be concise.
Justice means you receive no mercy SP. If you want justice Hell is your destination.I'm thankful for His mercy bestowed on the few of His choosing.I agree that God is indeed just. His justice is on display in His righteous damnation of the reprobate.
Thanks, but I read through most of your Dr.Boice quotes. If I wanted to give a summary I would have done just that. Go ahead and take the time to read. You know you can't resist it! :thumbs:
Be all of that as it may, you still need to show the source of the seven posts, even if it is from something you personally worked up to teach a 'systematics' seminary class, which I would suspect is probably not the case.
Rippon is right on this one.
Wonderful posts --- well grounded by scripture and worth the length. :thumbs:
And I did notice the attribution of the article to your "friend" whose name no one here would likely recognize. That's merely a "smoke screen" used by non-admin types to get their adversaries' messages removed or discredited.
I rather like the description your friend gives of "election." "...it is a title of dignity and that title was only applied to those who were believers." It does bear the notion that we have status before God.
In that regard, it has always bothered me about Calvinists that they didn't see "election" as some kind of status that was bestowed before the foundation of the earth and that allowed them to be saved while keeping the rest from even hearing the gospel.
No,one is predestined from before the foundation of the world. The predestined ones are one and the same group as the elect --also known as the sheep, church and a host of other names. One doesn't become predestinated in this life anymore than one becomes a sheep.In this life, in the realm of time, one repents and believes, one becomes regenerated, but that person does not become predestined.