The heart of the problem

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by stilllearning, Apr 2, 2010.

  1. stilllearning

    stilllearning
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    On another thread a statement was made to me, by Trotter.........

    By the way, I am not singling out Trotter at all in this, because I believe that most everyone here agrees with his statement.

    I have come to that conclusion because I fully expected this statement to draw a firestorm of correction from most of the people here, yet “nothing” was said!?!?!
    --------------------------------------------------
    Now the question has to be asked, what really qualifies a person to be “an authority on God’s Word”.
    What does the Bible say about this.......
    1 Corinthians 2:9-14
    V.9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
    V.10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    V.11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    V.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    V.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    V.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

    As we can see, the only thing that is required to be “an real authority” of God’s Word is the Holy Spirit and to rightly divide the Word of truth.
    --------------------------------------------------
    This is the great benefit of discussion forums like this:
    As we respond back and forth, conclusions are reached or problems are uncovered.

    The “problem”, that has been uncovered by Trotter’s statement is the indoctrination that all of us are being subjected to:
    i.e. That as Christians we “need” scholars or man’s wisdom, in order to understand the plain teachings of God’s Word.
    This is a lie.
    --------------------------------------------------
    The reason this problem needs to be exposed and overcome, is because it is tricking people into “bypassing” the Holy Spirit all together, in favor scholarly wisdom.

    Now don’t get me wrong, I am all for “scholarly wisdom”.........
    Proverbs 1:7
    “The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.”


    But scholarly wisdom needs to take it’s place, behind the Holy Spirit’s wisdom.
    --------------------------------------------------
    In all fairness, Trotter did continue on in his response to say that...”the Holy Spirit does lead and guide”:
    Well he also “reveals”!
    And Trotter also talked about not “knowing it all”........

    Well this is an important point:
    There is something that transcends “knowledge”. And that is Holy Spirit’s understanding.
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    The problem is not whether or not we trust the scholars, it is a declaration like - 'The Holy Spirit told me so and so is right so I must be right.'

    For example - one man reads Psalm 12v6-7 and say the Holy Spirit has laid it on his heart that it speaks of the preservation of God's word.

    A brother in Christ reads it and says that the Holy Spirit has told Him that it means that God will preserve His people.

    Both are godly men who love the Lord with all their hearts, minds, souls, and strength. They earnestly seek God's will and leadership in their lives. They both desire God's wisdom over man's wisdom.

    Which one is right? How do we know?
     
  3. Trotter

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    Just as real estate agents like to say that "location, location, location" are the most important things about real estate, "context, context, context" is the most important thing about quoting someone.

    My words "and unless you are a major scholar of the ancient languages and hold doctorates in all the various biblical studies you are woefully unqualified" had NOTHING to do with understanding God's word or even anything about a particular translation. I was talking about the qualifications for being a translator. If you are going to quote anyone, and especially me, make sure you take the context into consideration. I, for one, do not take kindly to my words being twisted and distorted.
    ===========================================================

    With that said, it is the Spirit that DOES lead. However, Roger has brought out a very good point in that if one does not understand the passage one is apt to assign it a meaning of one's own concoction (or that that someone else has offered that is no less wrong).

    Ignorance has no place in declaring "thus saith the scriptures". I have heard more than my share of men stand behind a pulpit and try to give a passage (written millenniums ago to an audience of the day with completely different manners and customs) a contemporary meaning using it as if it was written yesterday for the audience sitting in front of him. One does not have to be a scholar with sets of letters after one's name to be learned in the lore and history fo the bible, but it does take a little effort and intelligence.

    I have seen and heard many who say that they only need their (insert bible translation reference here) to know what God says. Unless these people have done some study and are literate in the background, customs, and errata of the people and settings of the bible they are showing just how willfully ignorant (or as most would say, "stupid") there really are. This would equate to a third grader trying to decipher calculus or trigonometry... without the knowledge it would not make sense. Sure, he would recognize numbers and mathematical symbols and even be able to pick at a little of it, but the meat of it and what it means would be completely beyond him.
     
  4. franklinmonroe

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    And Trotter has revealed that you did NOT read his post carefully in its' context.

    You have proved your point! The heart of the problem is that people don't read for comprehension!
     
  5. TomVols

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    I once heard someone say that half the problems of interpretation could be solved just by looking at context.......

    ....and so could the other half! :laugh: :thumbsup:
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    The error seen on this forum is not that men elevate scholarship and true study of language, words, texts, etc. Thank God we have great men (and women like Mrs Aland) who are gifted scholars in the field.

    It is that some elevate ignorance as if being illogical and wallowing in error were some sort of commendable virtue.

    It only takes a short time in a place, as was mentioned, like Psalm 12 to see the scholarship that actually looks at antecedents and the ignorance that just says "I heared me a sermon that says . . . "
     
  7. stilllearning

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    Hello Dr. Bob

    And thank you for your slur.

    You said........
    The Bible has a lot to say, about this kind of attack.........
    Acts 4:13
    “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.”


    And what’s the matter with Holy Spirit preaching.......
    1 Corinthians 1:21
    “For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”


    And here’s some advice for you.......
    1 Corinthians 3:18
    “Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.”


    And what would the Lord have to say about all this........
    1 Corinthians 1:27
    “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;”


    Where true wisdom is always found.....
    Psalms 119:99
    “I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies [are] my meditation.”


    And words to live by..........
    Proverbs 19:27
    “Cease, my son, to hear the instruction [that causeth] to err from the words of knowledge.”
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    The "slur" was to those who elevate IGNORANCE as if it is a virtue, condemning the study and understanding of the Word of God.

    To the elitist Romans or big city Jews, Peter from Galilee (who spoke and wrote 3 languages) was still an ignorant man. But that was their prejudice.

    Glorying in ignorance is not wise. Doesn't God want you to "study" to be approved (I know, absolutely horrible translation). Is understanding the Greek and Hebrew - actual WORDS of God - somehow a bad thing? Getting a proper education, seminary degree "wrong"? Should we all be Bible College drop-outs with zeal and no knowledge? Proverbs talks about that, too.

    I would not want to sit under a preacher who could not "handle the Word of God". I'd be fearful of the conclusions and understanding and what they were teaching.

    God used one of the greatest scholars of all time - Saul of Tarsus - to pen the intricate doctrinal sections of the NT so that myopic cretans would not run amok and claim to "know" the Word when they haven't a clue.

    And an untrained pastorate leads to devastation and rampant ignorance in the pew . . falling for false teaching and walking away from the faith. We've seen that in past years, haven't we.

    Glad you are "still learning" and should be commended for that. No slur on YOU personally.

    And will "walk away" from this post, as has been pointed out that sometimes I can get "worked up" on such an issue and do more harm than good. Will let C4K monitor the action here on this thread.

    Blessings.
     
    #8 Dr. Bob, Apr 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2010
  9. TomVols

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    1. Nothing wrong with Spirit anointed preaching. Non sequitur.
    2. Re: wisdom of this world? Take your own advice, friend.
    3. Men like me, Dr. Bob, C4K seem unwise to the wisdom of sectarians, but we'll take the Word of God over the itching ears of man any day.

    ISA 40 says it best: the Word of God stands forever. ​
     
  10. Mexdeaf

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    You know, it occurred to me today that if the Devil REALLY were into shaping a MV to pervert God's Word, what he would do is make one that denies the resurrection. After all, if one can completely negate the fact that Christ arose, then the Gospel falls flat on it's face. But not one MV denies the fact that Christ died, that He was buried, and that He rose again on the third day.
     
  11. Trotter

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    That has crossed my mind more than once, brother. I have yet to find a translation that does that, though. But, then, just because a translation uses different words than the Nehushtan KJV it is automatically the work of Satan himself... or didn't you know that? :p

    Dr.Bob, I value your posts very much. I appreciate you being sensitive to the feelings of others, but there are times when one must call the spade by its true name. Some of the KJVO crowd delight in slurring and condemning those of us who do not bow and scrape before their Nehushtan, inferring that since the KJV is THE ONLY word of God that we are using corrupt versions or just do not have the word of God at all. And the argument of all or nothing is beyond ridiculous and is not even worth the effort to show its ignorance of God and His nature... Many could learn much if they would shut up long enough to listen and actually CONSIDER what you have written instead of trying to find fault and poke holes.
     
  12. TomVols

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    Well said and worth saying. When those of us who uphold the Word against the attacks from the KJVO crowd get slurred, it's let go by the boards. But expose KJVO for what it is, and that crowd jumps up and down.
     
  13. stilllearning

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    Hi Dr. Bob

    Please don’t walk away from this post;
    I don’t want you to get worked up, but I am still learning, and would greatly benefit from “straight talk”.

    As for your last post, there was no straight talk found in it.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Out of one side of your keyboard you say that the your “slur” was not aimed at me(No slur on YOU personally”), and then to accuse me of Glorying ignorance, despising education, not rightly handing the Word of God.
    While referring to me as a “myopic cretan”, who doesn’t have a clue.
    --------------------------------------------------
    It is clear, that my OP has struck a cord.
    But that can be a good thing.........
    Proverbs 27:5
    “Open rebuke [is] better than secret love.”
     
  14. stilllearning

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    Hello C4K

    You said.........
    That is just it: No one has said, that “the Holy Spirit has told Him that it means that God will preserve His people.”
    (All they keep saying is that some obscure notes or some scholar, told them so.)

    At some point, we have to ask ourselves, “does the Bible have any validity anymore”:
    (When any 2bit scholar can say, “it doesn’t really say that”, and we believe it.)
    --------------------------------------------------
    As for.......
    Have we come to the point now, where we are not to trust the Holy Spirit’s voice?

    Now there are crack-pots, who clearly contradict Scripture in the things that they claim the Holy Spirit told them: (But there is the test!)
    I.e. Does what they say line up with the Bible?
    Not, “Does what they say line up with what some scholar says.”
    --------------------------------------------------
    Finally you say.......
    The ONLY place to find the truth is by rightly dividing God’s Word.
    (As for Psalms 12:6,7, that is being discussed on the other thread:)

    But this thread is covering a larger subject.
    --------------------------------------------------



    C4K, please do not close this thread, as some have suggested.
    I am greatly benefitting from it.

    Thank you
     
  15. stilllearning

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    Hello Trotter

    I apologize, for misunderstanding the gist of your words.

    And I forgive you for calling me a stupid third grader.
    (And for your information, I am in the 5th grade.)
     
  16. stilllearning

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    Hi Mexdeaf

    You said.......
    No he wouldn’t; For the simple reason, that we would immediately see the error, and reject it out of hand.

    What he would do, is ever so subtly place doubt about the Bible, over many years;
    And before we knew it, we wouldn’t trust it any longer.

    Like........
    Genesis 3:1
    “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
    And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?”

    Or in a more modern way......
    “This verse isn’t found in the best Greek manuscripts.”
    --------------------------------------------------
    In both cases, he is doing the same thing:
    Casting doubt on God’s Word.

    But they will have the same effect.
     
  17. Mexdeaf

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    You have much more confidence in the ability of people to recognize and reject error than I do.

    Actually the devil does not need to spend time casting doubt on God's Word because he has so many other people who are willing to do that for him.
     
  18. jbh28

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    Saying that this verse isn't found in the best Greek manuscripts isn't placing any doubt on God's word. It's about being honest. All translations do this. There are textual variants that exists. We have to look at evidence to determine if they are genuine Scripture or not. We don't want to take away from the Bible and we also don't want to add to the Bible.

    Now, before you disagree, make sure you think about what you say before you say it. Don't condemn the modern versions so quickly. The KJV translators did this very same thing. They had textual choices to make. AND, they also put in textual variants in the marginal notes. So if that is placing doubt on the Bible, then the KJV did it too.


    Here's an example

    Luke 17:36, the NASB includes the verse,
    NASB: Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.
    - "Early mss do not contain this v"

    ESV: Verse in footnotes
    - "Some manuscripts add verse 36: Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left"

    Many KJVO's will list this verse as and example of casting doubt on God's word. However, they might want to check out the marginal note in the KJV.

    KJV "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
    - "This 36. verse is wanting in most of the Greek copies"
     
    #18 jbh28, Apr 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2010
  19. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    and ain't it so!

    sure beats claiming the Holy Spirit's leading where only self-delusion n dishonesty rule.
     
  20. stilllearning

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    Hello jbh28

    You said........
    First of all, the word “best” is subjective.
    (What one scholar would call best, another would disagree.)

    And when I say it’s casting doubt, I am speaking from personal experience;
    When this is said, what do they want us to do?
    Take a knife and remove that verse from the Bible or simply doubt that it should be there in the first place?
    --------------------------------------------------
    You also said.....
    I may be wrong, but I don’t think that I have ever “condemned” an version of the Bible.
     

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