The Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem. .....the Church

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Feb 22, 2016.

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  1. Iconoclast

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    Recently some have denied any continuity between OT saints and the Church.
    The denial most times is that the prophetic portions of the prophets were only written to National Israel.
    Of course they were. That nation alone was given the oracles if God at that time....pre cross.
    Now since the cross ,since Romans 11.....Gentiles are coming in ,in droves.
    The Jerusalem which is above is the mother if us all......simple!
     
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  2. SovereignGrace

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    Turn loose the hounds!!
     
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  3. Iconoclast

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    This is so obvious that there will be no objections SG. ...
    You used Isa. 66 earlier.....this goes worldwide. ...and only one person voiced an objection ......that PROVES how clear it is!Sneaky
     
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  4. TCassidy

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    As I have stated over and over again (and which goes right over many people's heads) is that the so-called "genealogies" are not genealogies so much as ethnologies. They show the "family" relationship among the Old Testament saints, the New Testament saints, and the "family" relationship between the two.

    In the Old Testament the ethnologies show the relationship of the "Family of Abraham" (Israel) and in the New Testament they show the relationship of the "Family of God" (the "Church"). And that the New Testament Family of God (Church) is initially made up of "Spiritual Israel" (Romans 9:6) or the "Family of Abraham."
     
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  5. Iconoclast

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    TC
    What is your v iew of Isa_49 :1-8?
     
  6. TCassidy

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    I'm not sure what you are asking but it seems to me that Messiah is addressing Spiritual Israel regarding Himself as Prophet and Martyr. He encourages Israel by telling them of their deliverance from Exile, their Return, and their Restoration to their position in their own land as the Chosen of God to be His messengers to all of humanity. A position we now have in the Great Commission, as expressed by Paul in Philippians 2:16 "Holding forth the word of life."
     
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  7. Iconoclast

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    YES.....Jesus is the Head, believers are the body
    Jew and Gentile one new man IN CHRIST

    Isa49;
    6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

    8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

    9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

    Joel 2; fulfilled on the day of Pentecost;

    27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

    28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

    29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

    30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

    32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
    Joel3;
    15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

    16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

    17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

    18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk,


    Zeph 3
    14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

    15 The Lord hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the Lord, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

    16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

    17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

    Hebrews 12;
    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

    25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

    26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

    27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

    28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

    29 For our God is a consuming fire.
     
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  8. agedman

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    Icon,

    Do not forget, that often the prophets would see the suffering messiah, and the king messiah as one event blended together. This is why the Israeli folks of 2000 some years ago wanted Jesus as a physical ruler, a David on the throne, and were somewhat dismayed and confused by the presentation of Christ and the suffering. They did not see the two missions of God in Christ, one as the suffering savior, and then much later a return as the King of Kings.

    My Jewish friends still do not see the two rolls.

    Therefore, there is an ongoing work of fulfillment, not just of the kingdom in which believers enter at salvation, but an establishment of that kingdom upon this earth in such a manner that the kingdom will rule this earth and not be shaken.

    For the pre-mil folks, they see it as established on the earth in a dramatic second coming of Christ returning with the saints, who conquer all and rule. For the a-mil and others, there is the conquering church that one day will rule the world and I never could figure when Christ was supposed to return in those schemes.

    Both end up at the same place, and I am merely attempting to suggest that when applying prophetic statements, to keep in mind the dual role of Christ in relationship to not just the establishment of the believing kingdom, but the kingdom on this earth as well.
     
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  9. Iconoclast

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    When I was being taught the premillennialism ideas....I recollect this idea, and the discussions about what Israel was looking for....
    Now I see it as....what was King Jesus looking for?
    In Mt 21....He was looking for fruit from the vineyard as in Isa 5.....He did not find it to His satisfaction as vs43 attests to.

    Those who looked for an outward show were disappointed. They looked for a carnal physical Kingdom.....it was not to be.
    Like Nicodemus they did not grasp the spiritual truth's first.
    So all of this concern over national Israel and what they wanted has come and gone.
     
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  10. Iconoclast

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    Many say when reading the OT.......This was only for Israel.
    When we look at prophetic portions from the Prophets they looking forward tell a different story


    In Isa 54 right after the cross was revealed and spoken of this whole chapter deals with formerly non covenant Gentiles coming into the Kingdom....in droves,so much so that it goes worldwide......lengthen the cords,,,,strengthen the stakes...The God of the whole earth He shall be called.

    Is this yet future, or is it being fulfilled right now- In Gal4 we are given the answer by the Spirit through Paul-
    22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.


    23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.


    24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.



    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.



    Notice.....Paul quotes from Isa.54 explaining that the earthly Jerusalem is no longer in view....but rather the Jerusalem which is above is now the Holy City and Gentiles are included in this OT portion on equal footing with the saved remnant of Israelites.!SneakyThumbsupSneaky


    6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

    7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

    8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.

    9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

    10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

    11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

    12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

    13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

    14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

    15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

    16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

    17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.


    verse 13 quoted by Jesus in John 6 proves gentile inclusion in the elective program of God.;););););) One people.
     
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  11. Iconoclast

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    We see in Isa56 looking forward the same thing....those who take hold of the Covenant...Israelites or strangers who are called;
    Isaiah 56King James Version (KJV)
    56 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

    2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

    3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

    4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

    5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

    6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

    7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

    I believe all of these portions which looked forward are glimpses of the same truth.....The Servant of the Lord expands His Kingdom worldwide through the local church, bring people to His Holy Mountain...The Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem

    Notice...they are law keepers who do not PROFANE the Sabbath.
     
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  12. Iconoclast

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    At the end of Isa59 we read this;
    20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.

    21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

    this again quoted in Romans;

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    No breaking up of the truth...it all speaks to Gentile inclusion....Gentiles coming to Jesus, Gentiles coming to the Holy Mountain.
     
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  13. th1bill

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    The most helpful thing the Holy Spirit has done for my education was to instruct me on my view of the Bible. Coming to the faith at the age of forty-five I thought of the context as being continuous beginning with "In the beginning..." and not ending until the very last word of the Revelation 22.

    That remains but the division of the Books has been altered. The Spirit has taught me that Jesus taught from the Bible. That Bible is found in two forms. The form we know best is the first thirty-nine books of the Christian Bible, misnamed, the Old Testament and without the splitting of some of the books, this is the Jewis Bible.

    That leaves twenty-seven books, the Books, again misnamed, of the New Testament. I have come to recognize these as God Breathed breathed Life
    Style Commentaries on the Bible. And to answer the most asked question up front, yes, especially the Four Gospels.

    With this revelation from God these matters being discussed here became so much easier to digest.
     
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  14. Iconoclast

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    Here in Isa62 it continues;
    Isaiah 62King James Version (KJV)
    62 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

    2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

    3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

    4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

    In every place the truth of Kingdom growth in the time of the gospel preaching of the Apostolic church was evident, straight-forward, and without any confusion. There was one unified message...believing Jew and Gentiles called and drawn savingly to the Light of Christ......no complicated scheme, no division of peoples.
     
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  15. DHK

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    Evidently it is future. More than 20% of the world are Muslims and some of them led by radicals like ISIS. The kingdom is not worldwide and never has been. Neither Jehovah nor Christ has been or is called "the God of the whole earth." That will only happen in the Millennial Kingdom.
     
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  16. kyredneck

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    So you see three distinct characters in that statement? Yahweh, Christ, and God, right?
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    DHK

    I was first taught this idea also.....almost everything was put off until a future time and even now most skip over these verses as they think they do not apply to us right now. What a mistake that turned out to be. Lets look at Gal4 again;
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

    This is clearly speaking of Israelites who are not yet saved persecuting saved gentiles in the early church. Nothing here about a "future millenium"....it seems to be speaking of the gospel millenium here and now.



    .

    Considering it started with a few Apostles and a few thousand believers in one small part of the world and now circles the globe I would conclude it is well underway.
    Christ rules right now in the midst of His enemies

    The Kingdom grows daily....

    The fact there is still much idolatry shows we are still part of the early church.

    Scripture indicates there is much spiritual warfare to take place.

    Just take the North American continent.....it was only 400-500 yrs ago that the gospel got here......so when the Great Commission was given it implies a long time and many obstacles to overcome.


    In many churches that is exactly what He is called.....
     
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  18. SovereignGrace

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    So what part of earth does He not occupy?
    North Pole?
    South Pole?
    Mongolia?
    Saudi Arabia?
    Brazil?
    Argentina?
    Russia?
    China?
    Thailand?
    United Arab Emirates?

    He is all encompassing. Even in places He isn't worshipped, He is still God of the whole earth.

    By the way, Jehovah is Christ.
     
    #18 SovereignGrace, Feb 24, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2016
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  19. TCassidy

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    Apparently most of the US. :(
     
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  20. Iconoclast

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    Maybe he skipped oved Canada?
     
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