The Heresy of Investigative Judgment

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by OldRegular, Dec 7, 2013.

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  1. OldRegular

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    The Seventh Day Adventists, Church or Cult?

    Perhaps the following explains some of the opinions of SDA people on this Forum!

     
  2. OldRegular

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    Investigative judgment made simple, By Robert K. Sanders

    Who would have thought it?





    More to come!
     
  3. evangelist-7

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    This caught my eye ...
    "... their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling.
    Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil."

    1st part ... 1 John 1:7-10

    2nd part ... Jesus and all of the blessed epistle writers.
    Dis is called "overcoming", vhich Baptists know nothing about. Too bad.

    Gee, maybe I should join the SDA.

    .
     
    #3 evangelist-7, Dec 7, 2013
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  4. OldRegular

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    Ellen White Explains The Investigative Judgment

    This is just the beginning folks!

     
  5. steaver

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    Good eye! :thumbs: This also explains why the SDA agrees much with Mormonism, both at their core believe grace only kicks in AFTER ye do all ye can do.

    You definitely do not hold Baptist doctrine so I really don't know why you consider yourself one. From all of your post, if I didn't know your affiliation, I would place you as Mormon.
     
  6. OldRegular

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    Comparing Ellen G. White's Investigative Judgement With the Bible

    EJW's Point 1: Determining Who Are Prepared For the Kingdom

     
  7. BobRyan

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    "Meanwhile" -- Back to the Bible

    The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on

    investigating the records/books of heaven.

    Dan 7
    “I kept looking
    Until thrones were set up,
    And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
    His vesture was like white snow
    And the hair of His head like pure wool.
    His throne was ablaze with flames,
    Its wheels were a burning fire
    .
    10 “A river of fire was flowing
    And coming out from before Him;
    Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
    And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
    The court sat,
    And the books were opened.

    ...

    13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
    And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a Son of Man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days
    And was presented before Him.
    14 “And to Him was given dominion,
    Glory and a kingdom,

    That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.
    ...
    21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
    22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.



    ================================================
    Paul and the future Judgment.

    Romans 2


    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


    2 Cor 5:10
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

    And the "reward" for "Bad deeds"??? "The wages of sin is Death" Rom 6:23

    John and the future judgment --------------=========================================

    Rev 14:12

    12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


    Rev 14:6-7
    6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

    =============================================================

    The saints and sanctification.

    1 John 3:3
    3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.


    Phil 2
    12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
    14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.



    John defines what sin is
    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever commiteth sin, transgresseth also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law.


    5 And ye know that he was made manifest, that he might take away our sins, and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him, sinneth not: whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, neither hath known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness, is righteous, as he is righteous.
    8 He that commiteth sin, is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning: for this purpose was made manifest that Son of God, that he might loose the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God sinneth not: for his seed remaineth in him, neither can he sin, because he is born of God.
    .

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Dec 7, 2013
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  8. BobRyan

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    There is this to consider as well as 1 John 1.

    The saints and sanctification.

    1 John 3:3
    3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.


    Phil 2
    12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
    14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
     
  9. OldRegular

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    Like many of the cults that sprang up in the 19th Century the SDA claim additional revelation as do the Mormons, possibly the Jehovah's witnesses. Making a long story short following are some more pronouncements from the founder of the SDA.

    Living with the above nonsense no wonder the SDA's get all torqued up about the Biblical Doctrine of the Security of the Believer.
     
  10. Jordan Kurecki

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    Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
    Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
    Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
    Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
    Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
    Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
    Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    In Romans 3 Paul explains that all mankind (Jew and Gentile) have a sinful nature and are condemned under the still-existing Ten Commandments - Moral Law of God - as sinners.

    In Romans 2 Paul carefully separates out who "according to my Gospel" goes to heaven and who goes to hell.


    ===============================================================================
    Romans 2

    do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
    9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

    10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;


    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.



    14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel,God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.



    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

    ============================================================

    [FONT=&quot]Dan 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]9 ""I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
    10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
    22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints
    of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.


    Rom 2[/FONT]

    14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


    Rev 14:6-7
    6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
    7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
     
    #11 BobRyan, Dec 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2013
  12. Amy.G

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    Bob, what do you think of Ellen White? Do you believe her writings or that she was a prophet?
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Yes I do. I but I want to make the case AND the "test" for all doctrine "sola scriptura".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Amy.G

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    Sola scripture invalidates Ellen White.

    You are in a cult.
     
  15. OldRegular

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Name calling is not the same thing as sola scriptura testing of doctrine.

    so... back to the Bible.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. OldRegular

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    It appears that the imagination of Ellen White trumps the Word of God in the mind of Ryan and the SDA!
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Since I only responded with a quote of the Bible - which of these bible texts do you say is written by Ellen White??

    ==================================

    In Romans 3 Paul explains that all mankind (Jew and Gentile) have a sinful nature and are condemned under the still-existing Ten Commandments - Moral Law of God - as sinners.

    In Romans 2 Paul carefully separates out who "according to my Gospel" goes to heaven and who goes to hell.


    ================================================== =============================
    Romans 2

    do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
    9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

    10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;


    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.



    14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel,God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.



    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
    27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
    28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
    29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

    ================================================== ==========

    [FONT=&quot]Dan 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]9 ""I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
    10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
    22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints
    of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.


    Rom 2[/FONT]

    14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


    Rev 14:6-7
    6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
    7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
     
  19. BobRyan

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    "Meanwhile" -- Back to the Bible

    The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on

    investigating the records/books of heaven.

    Dan 7
    “I kept looking
    Until thrones were set up,
    And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
    His vesture was like white snow
    And the hair of His head like pure wool.
    His throne was ablaze with flames,
    Its wheels were a burning fire
    .
    10 “A river of fire was flowing
    And coming out from before Him;
    Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
    And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
    The court sat,
    And the books were opened.

    ...

    13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
    And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a Son of Man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days
    And was presented before Him.
    14 “And to Him was given dominion,
    Glory and a kingdom,

    That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.
    ...
    21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
    22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.



    ================================================
    Paul and the future Judgment.

    Romans 2


    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


    2 Cor 5:10
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

    And the "reward" for "Bad deeds"??? "The wages of sin is Death" Rom 6:23

    John and the future judgment --------------=========================================

    Rev 14:12

    12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


    Rev 14:6-7
    6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

    ================================================== ===========

    The saints and sanctification.

    1 John 3:3
    3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.


    Phil 2
    12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
    14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.



    John defines what sin is
    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever commiteth sin, transgresseth also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law.


    5 And ye know that he was made manifest, that he might take away our sins, and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him, sinneth not: whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, neither hath known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness, is righteous, as he is righteous.
    8 He that commiteth sin, is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning: for this purpose was made manifest that Son of God, that he might loose the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God sinneth not: for his seed remaineth in him, neither can he sin, because he is born of God.

    Hmmm you realize of course your response to my position above - that quotes the Bible alone - puts you in the position of making no sense right?

    Why do that???

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. OldRegular

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    More from the imagination of folks like Ellen White who are not content with the Revelation of God as recorded in the Bible.
    The ultimate outcome of those who become obsessed with their false interpretation of prophecy is sometimes tragic. Certainly, in the case of SDA, it has led to the heresy of Investigative Judgment.
     
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