The Heresy of the Sinner's Prayer

Hello

I agree with pinoybaptist. It is God that works repentance. I thought I would give you my testimony.

As a confirmed atheist and tearaway I went to a local Church, Elim Penticostal, when they opened their doors and used the place as a drop-in coffee bar for the local youth one night a week.
The gang I was in of course took this as an oppotunity to get a coffee for nothing, get warm and create chaos.
After a while, several weeks maybe, this Pastor's nagging got to me so I thought I would I would go and pray to Jesus just to get the Pastor off my back. Once I'd done it then he would leave me alone I thought. HaHa!

So there we were, him telling me the words and me speaking them into the air when about half way through the Lord arrived and instead of talking into the air I was actually talking to another person. As I realised that my little world exploded into inexplicability and I was never the same again no matter how hard I tried and I tried very hard.

Prayers don't hurt but I would be cautious with them. One should not tell a person that the prayer will save them. If they don't know it's by grace they will believe it is of works.

john.

 

Nobody's saying that.</font>[/QUOTE]That's good. It sure looks like you're saying that though. Frogman's answer seemed to cinch it.

If that's all you're saying, then you have no argument from me.

 

I wittnessed to a neighbor, I told he has adimt he has sinned and ask Jesus for forgiveness and ask Him into his heart and he would be saved. I went on to say-as Christians we are not to sin, but when we do we have Jesus as our advocate to God to seek forgiveness and we must repent. My neighbor does not believe that, he believes in works. When I asked him where he heard that, he said that's what he believes. I tried to convince him that wasn't so. He wouldn't listen, I'll let him ponder that for some time and talk to him again.

I did tell him about the thief on the cross, he had no comment.

Like I said, I'll give him a little time to think it over.

 

High Prime power 7;

Every sinners prayer I have ever heard, was repentance and acceptance. You can't do either unless, you believe. We are saved by Christ because of "belief" and "repentance."

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We are always saved by grace and that grace always comes through faith.

Our faith never comes from us alone but comes through the calling and conviction of the Holy Spirit.

We are not saved or regenerated inorder to believe first. Scripture never says that we are.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hi Pionybaptist;
In this verse you quoted below;
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Says volumes to the act of receiveing. You must notice that until you receive Him nothing happens. Only those who received Him have the power to become the sons of God. Those who reject Him have no Salvation.
The Word says;
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
The rejection of God is very real. If we can reject we can also receive Him by our own choice.

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

philg,

You posted;

But as many as received him he gave the power to become the sons of God.

Receiving does not require asking or willing. If I was walking down the road and you punched me in the eye, I would receive a black eye even though I did not ask, pray, choose, or will for it.

ILUVLIGHT,

You posted;

We are not saved or regenerated inorder to believe first. Scripture never says that we are.

The bible says that the natural mind of man is hostile to God. At enmity. This is not a freindly situation at all! The natural mind is active in hatred of God and good things.

The Bible also says we were SAVED while we were enemies.

The natural man does not accept spiritual things, nor understands them.

I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

I would suggest reading all of (2 Thess 2)

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who do we thank? Who chose who for salvation from the beginning?

All glory to God!

God bless! KJB

 

King James Bond,

I'm going to butt in here if you don't mind.

There are two ways to talk about "receiving". One is passive, the other active. For example, if I were sitting in a lazy-boy recliner and my wife handed me a cup of coffee, that could be called passive reception. If my wife fixed me a cup of coffee and left it on the table and said "you're coffee's ready", I would then have to get up out of my lazy-boy recliner and pick up it up myself. That could be called active reception. In both examples, I could say I received a cup of coffee, but there are differences between the two actions.

John 1:12. Is the subject active or passive in the act of receiving? The answer depends on your point of view.

 

There are two ways to talk about "receiving". One is passive, the other active. For example, if I were sitting in a lazy-boy recliner and my wife handed me a cup of coffee, that could be called passive reception. If my wife fixed me a cup of coffee and left it on the table and said "you're coffee's ready", I would then have to get up out of my lazy-boy recliner and pick up it up myself. That could be called active reception. In both examples, I could say I received a cup of coffee, but there are differences between the two actions.

John 1:12. Is the subject active or passive in the act of receiving? The answer depends on your point of view. </font>[/QUOTE]Let me butt in, friend. But, KJB can effectively speak for himself.

In the matter of man's eternal salvation, his role is always passive, never active.

The Bible says salvation is OF the Lord.
Romans 8:29-30 shows God not man doing all the phases.
At the cross, Christ did everything for those whom the Father gave Him - alone.
1 Samuel 23:3 was a conversation of the covenant between the God of Israel and the Rock of Israel, and no man was in active participation.

Salvation if OF the Lord. The elect sinner's role is passive.

 

4study,

There are two ways to talk about "receiving". One is passive, the other active. For example, if I were sitting in a lazy-boy recliner and my wife handed me a cup of coffee, that could be called passive reception. If my wife fixed me a cup of coffee and left it on the table and said "you're coffee's ready", I would then have to get up out of my lazy-boy recliner and pick up it up myself. That could be called active reception. In both examples, I could say I received a cup of coffee, but there are differences between the two actions.

That is correct...

John 1:12. Is the subject active or passive in the act of receiving? The answer depends on your point of view.

That is incorrect. The truth is the real answer no matter how people see it.

In John 1:12 it is helpful to read all of John. But at the very least read all of John 1.

pinoybaptist is correct. In regard to salvation men are always in the passive sense of receiving.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

The world knew Him not.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Thanks God bless KJB

 

KJB and pinoybaptist,

I disagree. I understand your point, however, I think it's being taken to an extreme (no disrespect intended). Without "choice" there would be no accountability for our actions. So does it rob God of His Soverignty if we say a human being must "accept" or "choose"?

 

PrimePower7,

Sorry, I know I'm getting this thread of track.

For the sake of simplicity, I would say PRAYER=CHOICE. My assumption being that it comes from one's heart. If someone prays "God help me", they do so by choice, not by election.

 

Faith and belief do not require prayer, only hearing, understanding and comprehending the need for a saviour. Asking God for forgiveness and asking Him to be the Lord of your life is a display of your faith. This can be done in one's own heart. Once you believe, you WANT to pray and ask for forgiveness.

 

Just a quick note. The scriptures do not say you must 'truly' believe. 'Truly' is truly not needed and is additional to scripture. It has the effect on the believer to investigate himself instead of just believing. He has taken His eyes of Jesus and returned them to himself. How can we know if it is truly truly?

If you believe you believe if you don't you don't.

john.

 

I disagree. I understand your point, however, I think it's being taken to an extreme (no disrespect intended). Without "choice" there would be no accountability for our actions. So does it rob God of His Soverignty if we say a human being must "accept" or "choose"? </font>[/QUOTE]4study:

Study (no disrespect) the choices you say God gives to man. As federal head of the human race, Adam was the only one with true unbound choice.

He was created without sin, he fellowshipped face to face with his creator, everything he needed was allowed to him and supplied to him.
Yet he disobeyed, of his own free unfettered free will, and from then on his will was bound to a fallen nature, which we all inherit, a nature which desires to be 'as gods'.

The death that entered along with sin thru one man spoken of in Romans 5:12 wasn't simply only physicalm but spiritual, too.

When God said, 'the soul that sinneth' it shall die, it wasn't an afterthought, it was a declaration of the result, rather than the penalty, for sin.

Therefore, whatever responsibility you are looking for, Adam, the federal head exercised already, and failed.

The law was given to show us how we failed our responsibility, and will continue to fail that responsibility, unless someone who is able walks up the plate, and takes responsibility for man.
Someone did, and that was Christ, whom God foreordained to that task from eternity past.

I am sure you will point to such scriptures as 'choose life' as in the case of God telling Israel.

But, notice, the addressee was Israel, not mankind.
Israel being an illustration of how God deals with the spiritual Israel, which is the true Israel, composed of both elect Jews and Gentiles.
The choice to choose life, or death, blessings or cursings, this responsibility of choice, is to the elect. And this is not a case for eternal life, for immortality, which is already the elect's, and which the gospel brings to light.

The unelect, the rest of mankind, lies under condemnation.
No Savior stood in their place, their names are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life, no one stepped up the plate of responsibility for them.

For the objects of God's mercy, the people which He separated unto Himself, Christ, the second Adam, fulfilled responsibility, and full obedience.

 

To some of you out there,

Just so we are not off track, let us come to a conclusion on the prayer question right away.

The following portions of Scripture should make it very clear about human frailness in knowing how to pray properly.

It also clearly shows that these chosen people are being worked within and upon and have been chosen and called by God to love Him.

It is a continuing statement and therefore needs to be treated that way.

And the Holy Spirit helps us in our distress. For we don't even know what we should pray for, nor how we should pray.

But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words.

And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God's own will.

And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.

For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And he gave them right standing with himself, and he promised them his glory.

It is His prayer, His will, His purpose, His causing, His calling, His knowing (intimate), His choosing, His promising,......

I am not trying to be rude here but this notion of people having good-wills and free-wills with somehow better minds or hearts to choose with needs to be put away.

No man could ever see clearly enough to choose to come to God properly unless God has intervened upon that man so he could see.

People may come to God.....but without a broken spirit and a contrite heart....what will He say to them? What will they say to Him? Will they deny themselves or thank themselves?

Give credit where the credit is due. Give glory where glory is due. Give honor where honor is due. Give respect where respect is due. Give thanks where thanks is due.

It is ALL due God! No one shall boast of ANYTHING in His presence. Nothing at all! Not even choosing correctly.

It is all about God folks. His will! It will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Stop exalting yourselves, your willpower, your effort, your wisdom, and lovely hearts!

Please re-consider your position before a mighty God. Deny yourselves before Him!

May God bless you all. KJB

 

pinoybaptist,

I’m glad you brought this up. What we believe about “choice” or “election” or whatever you want to call it, all starts with what we believe about God and Adam.

Adam did NOT have an “unbound”, “unfettered” free will. In fact, there’s no such thing as “free will”. It’s a fantasy thought. Everything a human being does is with respect to God. That’s accountability. So Adam is accountable to God, no matter what reference point we use. Before the fall, after the fall. It’s all the same.

God is always the same, right? And God has a relationship with Adam before the fall. Whatever you decide to call that relationship, I hope we can agree on two things; one, that God sustains the relationship, and two, that there is an order, a law, a set of rules, that binds it together. So if this describes Adam’s relationship with God before the fall, does it really become any different after the fall? No. God remains the same. The point is, both before and after the fall, Adam is still accountable to God. If he’s accountable to God, he’s still making choices. If he’s still making choices, he remains the same. Unchanged. In essence, he’s the same man he was before; a man who must answer to God for his choices.

This may sound alarming, but Adam’s nature did not change after the fall. Adam is a “choice-maker” and so are you and I.

 

4study,

The entire human race is fallen. Yes we make choices.....but what has that got to do with anything at all?

All are sinners. No one is good not one.

For us to get into heaven and be with God it would require nothing less than absolute perfection.

The nature of man is to sin! That is mans natural desire and inclination....choosing to sin.

That means when we raise up a little girl we have to teach her all the good things.

We don't have to teach her all the wrong things because those all come natural. By nature she will lie, cheat, hate, steal, covet, lust, dishonor God, dishonor parents, fight with siblings.

By nature she will have greed, envy, impatience, and the list goes on and on.

When a child first begins to speak, out comes lies.

Imagine the child with chocolate all over her face as her mom asks her "Have you been into the chocolate cookies?" "No I have not" says the child.

For such things as sin no man needs a teacher!

It is not choosing that means much. We all make choices. The problem is that the human heart is sick. The human mind is at enmity with God.

The heart of the problem, is the problem of the heart.

God bless, KJB