The Holy Father visits Spain

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Carson Weber, May 4, 2003.

  1. Headcoveredlady

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    Did he go to preach the gospel of salvation? How many were saved?

    I really want to know how many were saved because I lived there for a while and while I was there most Spaniards rejected the gospel.
     
  2. thessalonian

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    I hear at Billy Graham crusades, from a protestant radio station 8 out of 10 have to get "resaved" some 6 or 8 times. So the numbers we hear out of his crusades aren't don't really mean much. At easter last year I know that around 200,000 were brought in to the fullness of the truth. Haven't heard the numbers for this year yet.

    I heard the Pope preaching Jesus Christ and love for him yesterday. Now we don't have people coming up for altar calls. That is not the way that people come in to the Catholic Church but then altar calls are not in the Bible either. But I am sure some people come to Christ hearing him speak and seeing his example for Jesus Christ.

    [ May 04, 2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
     
  3. Carson Weber

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    Did he go to preach the gospel of salvation?

    Of course he did. That's his vocation.

    How many were saved?

    We will only know that when we reach our heavenly abode.

    Now we don't have people coming up for altar calls.

    Except for the altar call at every liturgy where we renew our baptismal covenant with God by partaking in the covenant sacrifice.
     
  4. Don

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    Carson, if your trust is solely in Jesus Christ, why do you perform rituals?

    Just curious.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    I was not aware that Jesus had a "Prime Minister" is that something new the Catholic church has made up?

    Would any other Christian denomination besides the Catholic church consider the pope "Christ's Prime Minister" - Vicar of Christ on earth? Vicar of the Son of God?...

    Just curious.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. thessalonian

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    I was not aware that Jesus had a "Prime Minister" is that something new the Catholic church has made up?

    Would any other Christian denomination besides the Catholic church consider the pope "Christ's Prime Minister" - Vicar of Christ on earth? Vicar of the Son of God?...

    Just curious.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Nope. It's one of the side benefits of being in a Church that contains the fullness of the truth. Pretty bold claim isn't it. And you know what. It's true. Check out Is 22. It directly parrelel's Mt. 16:18. The davidic kingdom which Christ restored did not just have a king. It had the king's steward. The spokeman for the king. But once again Bob, I suspect you will have that you will believe what flesh and blood hath revealed to you.

    Blessings.
     
  7. thessalonian

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    Where in the Bible does it say there will be no ritual? Jesus asked that the last supper be performed in rememberence of him. Whether you take the symbolic or literal view this is ritualistic. Baptism is ritual whether or not you believe that it forgives sins. We are called to repent and be bapitized. Ritual is natural to mankind. It is a part of who we are and who God made us to be so that we could properly worship him.
     
  8. MikeS

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    Read Thomas Howard's "Evangelical Is Not Enough" for a good answer. His "On Being Catholic" is also excellent.
     
  9. Dualhunter

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    24 "So they will hang on him all the glory of his father's house, offspring and issue, all the least of vessels, from bowls to all the jars.
    25 "In that day," declares the LORD of hosts, "the peg driven in a firm place will give way; it will even break off and fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken." - Isaiah 22:24-25 NASB

    Notice the peg driven in a firm place will give way; it will even break off and fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken. Doesn't sound like trusting in the pope is a good idea.
     
  10. thessalonian

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    24 "So they will hang on him all the glory of his father's house, offspring and issue, all the least of vessels, from bowls to all the jars.
    25 "In that day," declares the LORD of hosts, "the peg driven in a firm place will give way; it will even break off and fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken." - Isaiah 22:24-25 NASB

    Notice the peg driven in a firm place will give way; it will even break off and fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken. Doesn't sound like trusting in the pope is a good idea.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Now there were two fullfillments of this prophecy.
    Seems to me this is more likely referring to the physical replacement (the literal fullfillment, not the spiritual) of Shebna with Eliakim which did in fact happen as we know from Is 37 and other places. And we know that the earthly Davidic kingdom is no more. Problem with your applying this part to what Jesus said to Peter is that he said "THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL". Jesus replaces the ending of Is 22 with his own ending that says that we don't have to worry about the peg failing. Thus the earthly kingdom fell but the spiritual kingdom which has been around for 2000 years will not fail.

    Nice try though.
     
  11. Carson Weber

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    Carson, if your trust is solely in Jesus Christ, why do you perform rituals?

    Don, your question entails what we call a non sequitur. Trusting in Jesus Christ for our salvation from sin in no way necessitates the exclusion of and in no way precludes ritual.

    Ritual is defined by Meririam-Webster as "a customarily repeated act". This act may be prayer, breaking bread, gathering on Sunday, reading the Bible, etc. - and it can properly be termed "ritual".

    Ritual is what helps us as Catholics in our relationship with the Lord, and if I were to examine your own Christian practice, I'm sure I could point out plenty of ritual in your own setting.

    Jesus Christ commanded us to "do/offer (Gk. poiete, cf. Ex 29:38, LXX) this in remembrance of me", and we witness the first disciples faithfully celebrating the Lord's Supper constantly in a comitted fashion in Acts 2:42. This is ritual, is it not?
     
  12. Bro. Curtis

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    Jesus Christ's prime minister ? [​IMG]

    The church free from error ? [​IMG]

    Thanx for the laughs.
     
  13. thessalonian

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    Curtis,

    Since you have decided to join this party, perhaps you can prove for me that your church/beliefs are free from error? Are all of your interprutations of the Bible correct? If not, which ones are in error?
     
  14. Bro. Curtis

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    No I don't. I'm not making any such claim.

    Nice try.

    "Jesus Christ's prime minister"

    ROTFL
     
  15. thessalonian

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    Why is ridicule always your game? Do you think us Catholics are stupid people and you are somehow superior in and of yourself because you do not believe this (if it were not true)?

    Now are you saying that some of the doctrines that you hold to be true are not? I.e. are you saying that you may perhaps misinterprut some verses of scripture?
     
  16. trying2understand

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    Curtis, since you do not make the claim that your church is free of error, where do you see error in your church?

    Or do you refrain from such a claim because you are not sure either way?

    Ron
     
  17. Carson Weber

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    1 Million Attend Canonization of 5 Saints in Madrid

    Martyr From Spanish Civil War Among Those Honored


    MADRID, Spain, MAY 4, 2003 (Zenit.org) - John Paul II appealed to Spain's Catholics to be faithful to their rich spiritual legacy, as he canonized five of their compatriots.

    More than 1 million people gathered in Columbus Square today to participate in the key ceremony of the Pope's fifth visit to Spain.

    "The Successor of Peter, pilgrim in Spanish lands, repeats to you: Spain, continuing a legacy of courageous evangelization, be a witness today of the resurrected Jesus Christ!" the Holy Father said during the homily.

    Two of the newly canonized saints are priests Pedro Poveda (1874-1936), founder of the Teresian Association who was martyred during the Spanish Civil War; and José María Rubio (1864-1929), Jesuit religious, apostle of the poorest neighborhoods of Madrid.

    The other three were women religious: Genoveva Torres (1870-1956), foundress of the Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and of the Holy Angels (known as the Angelicas); Ángela de la Cruz (1846-1932), foundress of the Sisters of the Company of the Cross; and María Maravillas de Jesús (1891-1974), a Discalced Carmelite.

    "In giving thanks to the Lord for the many gifts he has lavished on Spain, I invite you to pray with me that new saints will continue to flower in this land," the Pope said.

    The Holy Father mentioned two conditions for new saints to appear in Spain: the need to maintain faithfulness to the Gospel and to defend family unity.

    "Do not break with your Christian roots!" he said. "Only in this way will you be able to give to the world and to Europe the cultural wealth of your history."

    During the homily, the Pope highlighted the heroic virtues of the five saints.

    He said that St. Pedro Poveda "ended his life with the crown of martyrdom" during "the religious persecution" that Spain suffered from 1936 to 1939, during which almost 12,000 priests and women religious died for their faith.

    John Paul II highlighted St. José María Rubio's motto: "To do what God wills and to will what God does."

    St. Genoveva Torres "was an instrument of the tenderness of God toward people who are alone and in need of love, consolation, and care of body and soul," the Pope said. "The characteristic note that drove her spirituality was reparation through eucharistic adoration."

    "A similar love and sensibility toward the poor led St. Ángela de la Cruz to found her Company of the Cross, with a charitable and social dimension in favor of the neediest," he added.

    "St. Maravillas de Jesús," he said, "lived inspired by a heroic faith, made concrete in the response of an austere vocation, placing God at the center of her life."

    Among those attending the canonization was Manuel Vilar, an Argentine boy who was pronounced clinically dead when he drowned in a pool. He miraculously returned to life through the intercession of Mother Maravillas.

    Among those concelebrating with the Pope was a Jesuit religious cured of terminal cancer through the intercession of Father Rubio.

    ZE03050403
     
  18. Johnv

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    That's a silly question. I'm not Catholic, but we in my church perform rituals. We say "Amen" after prayers, we stand at the start of the service and when we sing, and we bow our heads when we pray. We do these things because they are customary and familiar, yet they have no bering on salvation.
     
  19. Carson Weber

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    Papal Collaborator Evaluates John Paul II's Trip to Spain

    Interview with Father Lombardi, Vatican Radio's Program Director


    VATICAN CITY, MAY 5, 2003 (Zenit.org) - A great surprise of John Paul II's visit to Spain was the large number of people who attended the two key events, says the program director of Vatican Radio.

    Father Federico Lombardi, who followed the Pope closely during his 99th international trip, evaluated the visit.

    Q: What is your opinion of the Pope's fifth trip to Spain?

    Father Lombardi: I think it is a trip that went perfectly, as anticipated. Although at present the Pope is limited in his movements, we can still say that, with his spiritual presence and his voice, he dominated the terrain.

    We saw it in the talks with the young people, in his improvisations, in the force of his expressions. So we arrived at trip No. 99 and we will surpass 100.

    Q: You mentioned young people. What scene impressed you most of that meeting?

    Father Lombardi: I was very impressed by the testimonies during the meeting with young people. They were extremely effective and wrung applause from the young.

    The theme of the trip was "You Will Be My Witnesses," and we were able to see witnesses not only in the figures of the saints canonized on Sunday morning, but also in the way in which the young people witnessed their commitment to Christ.

    They were individuals with different ecclesial occupations -- a young nun, a seminarian, a layman, and also a married couple and a handicapped woman had prepared for the occasion. They were really able to demonstrate that the Lord's Spirit blows very strongly and that witness is alive.

    Q: One of the characteristics of this trip was the contagious cries of enthusiasm that hundreds of thousands of pilgrims dedicated to the Pontiff. Was that Latin affection for John Paul II?

    Father Lombardi: Certainly. When there are Spanish-speaking young people in St. Peter's Square or in the world, their presence is noted, by the way they transmit enthusiasm, by the slogans they cry out.

    I am always very interested in the creativity of these slogans. This time, I learned two new ones, which I had never heard before. One is: "John Paul 'torero' [bullfighter], the whole world loves you."

    We must remember that these days, patron feasts are being celebrated in Madrid with bullfights. To address a person with the name "torero" is to pay him the highest possible compliment.

    Another slogan was "John Paul II has changed the world for us." It is a beautiful slogan, full of hope. I think young people continue to feel the novelty the Pope brings.

    Q: There were a million people at the canonizations. The Spanish faithful did not want to miss this engagement. From what you were able to see and hear, what is the impression of the bishops of this attendance and, more generally, of the Pope's presence in their national community?

    Father Lombardi: I think the bishops were very pleased. On Saturday, I attended the dinner offered by the episcopal conference, where there was a very happy and peaceful atmosphere. The Spanish people have really responded with much affection.

    The different parts of the country were represented, and one could perceive a peaceful community atmosphere. I would say, therefore, that the episcopal conference has been really encouraged and sustained by the Pope's presence to carry forward its pastoral projects.

    They have also been encouraged to promote the climate of reconciliation and peace in a country in which there is no lack of moments of tension, in particular, as we know, linked to terrorism.
     

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