The identity of "whom he foreknew" at Rom 8:29

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Mar 1, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. (Romans 11:1-2).

    Those God foreknew at Romans 8:29 are the Jews who God had known as his people before the present time of Paul's writing. Romans 8:29 has absolutely NOTHING to do with God knowing people in/for the future. The word "foreknew" here and at Romans 11:2 is a reference to God knowing people in the PAST.

    As it is, it is here irrelevant whether or not "God knows the future." The question at hand is what is this verse talking about and what does it intend to say. The intention of the word foreknew (to know beforehand) is to indicate God had known the Jews beforehand, that is before the present time (when the letter of Roamns was written).

    Romans 8:29 means:

    Jews in the past<-----God knew them before in the past

    NOT

    God knew people before they existed or were saved-------->People in the future

    The same word is also used this way here:

    "So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem; since they foreknew me." (Acts 26:4-5)

    "So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem; since they knew me beforehand]/b]." (Acts 26:4-5).

    Obviously, this word "foreknew" here is not a reference to the Jews foreknowing the future is it? It is a reference to the Jews having known Paul in the past.

    It is used in the same way at Romans 8:29 and 11:2.

    The passage obviously means:

    "For those Jews whom God had known before the present time...."
     
  2. russell55

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    In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints (those Jews whom God had known before the present time) according to God’s will. And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God (those Jews whom God had known before the present time), who are called (those Jews whom God had known before the present time) according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew (those Jews whom God had known before the present time), he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son. And all those he predestined (those Jews whom God had known before the present time) he also called; and all he called (those Jews whom God had known before the present time), he also justified; and all those he justified (those Jews whom God had known before the present time) he also glorified.

    What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us (those Jews whom God had known before the present time), who can be against us (those Jews whom God had known before the present time)? Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all (those Jews whom God had known before the present time)—how will he not also, along with him, freely give us (those Jews whom God had known before the present time) all things? Who will bring any charge against God’s elect (those Jews whom God had known before the present time)?

    Thank you. Finally, after all these years, this passage makes sense.
     
  3. Ben Elohim

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    And what, pray tell, did you think you solved their russell?
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    Ben, I do not agree with your conclusion about Romans 8:29, I believe that Paul is not saying that God foreknew the Jews, but that God foreknew those 12 whom He gave to the Son. Jesus reveals that in John 17.
    The scope of Paul's meaning is somewhat narrower than "all the Jews of the past". I believe that Paul is making the point that God knew beforehand who the Apostles would be.

    In 28 through 30, whom, at the time Paul was writing this could it be said about that were Called and justified? It could be none, other than the apostles that Jesus Called out of the Jews. Jesus justified them by making them His Apostles who would "build His church" by Going into "all" the world making disciples. That work is still in progress, and will continue until the Lords return. Further, "He decided beforehand who were the ones destined to be moulded to the pattern of His Son". Who but the Apostles lived, ate, followed for 3 or so years, becoming moulded in the pattern of Jesus. Jesus made them his brothers.
    You are quite simply wrong! Paul is speaking of the select few whom God the Father gave "out of the Jews" to Jesus to be His Apostles.
     
  5. rc

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    Wes, your so hooked on the twelve! Sorry, but that is beyond even trying to explain.

    BUT BEN !!! Wow, are you SOOOOO wrong. It makes me angry! How dare you come into this forum and lie like that!! You better be very careful when you start decieving people by changing God's words like that...

    The word for "foreknew" in Romans 11:2 is

    UBS] proginw,skw (verb indicative AORIST ACTIVE 3rd person singular) know already, know beforehand; choose from the beginning, choose beforehand

    The word in Acts is 26:4-5 is 'KNOW'
    oi=da verb indicative perfect active 3rd person plural

    [UBS] oi=da (pf. with pres. mng. i;ste may be 2 pl. ind. or impv., ind. 3 pl. oi;dasi and i;sasi, subj. eivdw/, inf. eivde,nai, masc. ptc. eivdw,j, fem. ptc. eivdui/aÈ plpf. h;|dein ; fut. eivdh,sw) know, understand, perceive ( tou/to ga.r i;ste ginw,skontej be very sure of this or you know this very well Eph 5.5); experience, learn, know how; be acquainted with, recognize, acknowledge; remember (1 Cor 1.16); pay proper respect to (1 Th 5.12)

    You have misapplied scripture and willfully are intending to deceive others by posting this garbage. There is absolutly NO comparison between these to texts. Absolutly amature.
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    Well rc, I have certainly provided scripture that identifies "the elect" to the twelve, while you have provide no scripture whatever that identifies those you call "the elect"!

    Until you identify those you refer to as "the elect", you have NO GROUNDS to criticize me.
     
  7. rc

    rc
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    Wes, so you want to narrow the elect to just the twelve? Wow, and I thought the Jehovah's Witnesses were selective with 144,000 ! You just want 12 !

    Big deal, Jesus prayed for the 12 in John 17. You can not parallel 17 and 10 or 8 or Romans 8 or 9,10,11 with that. Exegesis is not putting a word into a search engine and "linking" that word everywhere and having it mean the same for all. That's hermeneutics 101.
     
  8. rc

    rc
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    Wes,
    Romans 8 just talking about the apostles? That's ridiculous ! There is nothing in 8 that even eludes to the apostles! But God did foreknow, GOD did predestine, God did call, God did justify and God did glorify! What's missing in that formula... oh yeah, your favorite god, MAN.
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    A direct parallel exists between John 17 and Roman's 8.

    His purpose was to build a church, The Body of Christ. He was given, by the FATHER, 12 men who would be the foundation of that Body of Christ, though in Jesus words one of them was a devil. Evenso a worthy replacement was chosen "by God", to fill that 12th position. Therefore the "foundation of the City of God, New Jerusalem" which is described as being comprised of 12 precious stones provides them eternal glory.

    By the way, I never said that Roman's 8 is about the Apostles, only that verses 27-30 are.

    Why do you want to limit "the elect to Roman believers"?

    Until you specifically identify "the Elect", you have no grounds to criticise me.
     
  10. rc

    rc
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    Romans 5:28-30. We are well aware that God works with those who love him, those who have been called in accordance with his purpose, and turns everything to their good. He decided beforehand who were the ones destined to be moulded to the pattern of his Son, so that he should be the eldest of many brothers; it was those so destined that he called; those that he called, he justified, and those that he has justified he has brought into glory.

    Where in the world does it say that these are the apostles?

    The Elect? Are you truely kidding me? The elect are those who where foreknown, predestined, called, glorified, and justified.

    What does the word itself mean? God has ORDAINED those to salvation. Chosen, elected, voted for. Ones in whom God has desired to enlighten.
     
  11. rc

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    Who would be DECIDED BEFOREHAND who would be DESTINED to to be CONFORMED to the pattern of His son WES? Hmmmm ... God DECIDED BEFOREHAND, destined hmm.... elect wes, is exactly what this verse implies. Those chosen before TIME to be "moulded" to be like Christ. BEFORE TIME wes... sorry. Read Ephesians 1. That is EVERYBODY ! Not some lame excuse as "just the apostles"... where did you come up with that anyway? Please don't say yourself...
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Whom did God give to Jesus for HIS PURPOSE? Simon whom he called Peter, and his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot who became a traitor to HIS SON?

    What was the PURPOSE? Was it not to "build the Church of Jesus Christ...The Body of Christ"! Was it not the establishment of Christianity?
    Who better has done that?

    Who would you say is the MOST conformed to the pattern of HIS SON? Would it be these apostles, or John Doe of the Elect? Who is there that is more conformed?

    How long before, did God the Father KNOW that he was giving the Apostles to His Son?

    What has happened to those 12 that hasn't likewise happened to the nebulous multitudes that you would include in "The Elect"? Have they not BEEN JUSTIFIED? Have they not received GLORY AND HONOR?

    Show me the others out of your ELECT that have been treated likewise. We can name a few including Billy Graham, John Wesley, Luther, etc. So who are the elect?

    Who do you say are "The elect"?
     
  13. rc

    rc
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    The elect are every Person in the History of the world that Christ died for. I can easily interject all these people in those verses also Wes.
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    Can you tell me then who Jesus did not die for?

    Can you say who in our human future Jesus did not die for?

    Can you tell me who Jesus did die for out of those who lived 200 years ago?

    No, rc you cannot because you do not know who Jesus died for and who he did not die for because you summarily reject that Jesus died for ALL!
     
  15. rc

    rc
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    Easy Wes,

    Christ died for those whom He chose before the foundation of the world.

    John 10:26-28 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    The good shephard lays down His life for THE sheep,

    I KNOW my sheep....

    Away from me you evil doers, I never knew you...

    NEVER, MEANS NEVER !! NEVER KNEW !!

    BUT He KNOWS His sheep.

    For those 200 years ago? That shows how much you know about this subject. How about a BILLION years ago? Or a billion, billion, billion years ago Wes? .. He knew all the elect back then and had a will and a purpose to pay for their sin before He created earth. Which is YOUR problem. He knew before He created the earth ALL of the people that would not choose Him, yet He still created them knowing they would go to hell. Isn't that right? He also chose those whom He had KNOWN before hand. His flock, His Moses, His Jacob, His Abram, His ELECT !
     
  16. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    :cool: Eli's house comes to mind. :cool:

    :cool: johnp. :cool:
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    Good! Do you have more?
     
  18. rc

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    Doesn't need any more. He PROVED his point.
     
  19. johnp.

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  20. rc

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    Dodging my question Wes,

    For those 200 years ago? That shows how much you know about this subject. How about a BILLION years ago? Or a billion, billion, billion years ago Wes? .. He knew all the elect back then and had a will and a purpose to pay for their sin before He created earth. Which is YOUR problem. He knew before He created the earth ALL of the people that would not choose Him, yet He still created them knowing they would go to hell. ISN'T THAT RIGHT? He also chose those whom He had KNOWN before hand. His flock, His Moses, His Jacob, His Abram, His ELECT !
     

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