The importance of the doctrine of the Trinity

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by AITB, Mar 17, 2003.

  1. AITB

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    Suppose someone
    a) believes the Bible is the Word of God
    b) believes the Bible doesn't teach the doctrine of the Trinity (therefore they don't believe it)

    Is this person a Christian?
     
  2. MEE

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    I have been waiting for someone to reply to this topic, but since there has been no response I will try to answer, according to my belief. [​IMG]

    I most defenitley believe the Bible is the Word of God, but I don't believe in the Trinity, as in "three persons."

    I feel that there are "three manifestations," of our One God.

    Isaiah 9:6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the goverment shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Yes, one can be a Christian and not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.

    You might call me an adopted spiritual Jew...my Father became a Jew, according to humanity, and I call Him Jesus! [​IMG]

    MEE
     
  3. Chemnitz

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    I do not believe one can have sound teaching in a church body that denies the Trinity, because any other teaching takes away from the sacrifice of the cross.
     
  4. Helen

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    Hi Helen, too!

    It is Jesus who saves, and He picks us up from all manner of strange ideas and, through the Holy Spirit, gradually leads each of us to all truth. "For now we see through a glass, darkly," is cause for humility, I think!

    So yes, there are some NEW Christians who may not understands the Trinity is real, but there will never be a mature Christian who doesn't!

    If God were not three actual Persons in ONE, then God would have needed us; He would have been incomplete in Himself. For love requires an object. One cannot simply 'love' -- one must love something or someone. God is love. This being so, who was He to love? What was the object of His love before creation? If there were no object of His love, then He would have been incomplete in and of Himself and not God at all. Therefore there had to be at least two.

    In the same way, God would not have had anyone to communicate with, and thus would have been incomplete in that way as well.

    But God is complete in and of Himself as Three Persons -- the Trinity.

    Of course, we can see the logical necessity of it, and we can read about all three in the Bible and see the references to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We can read the Sh'ma stating "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One!", using the plural 'elohim' for God there, ..... but that doesn't mean our finite human minds can really understand it.

    And if we limit God to what we understand, then we are putting ourselves in His place and Him in ours. He understands us, as we are His creation. By virtue of that relationship alone, we cannot be expected to understand Him.

    That is cause for humility, too, and the patience to wait until we are given whatever it takes to grasp the truth of the Trinity -- which will most probably NOT be in this life here on earth!
     
  5. ONENESS

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    Why cant we read about all four or five as well? What about the burning bush (Exd 3:4)? There’s the forth person. And what about the Donkey (Numb 22:28). Guess that could be a fifth person if you wanted to think about it long enough.

    Do you know why the Sh’ma was given? Moses was heading back to the basics of their releigion in Deut 6. b/c they were getting ready to enter a land in which they had never been. There were cities that they did not build. There were going to be houses filled with things that they did not fill them with. There were going to be wells that were dug that they did not dig and vineyards and olive trees that they did not plant which they would eat off of and get full (Deut 6:10-11)

    And then Moses said one of the most important things he probably said in his whole life when he said "beware lest thou forget the LORD, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage".

    Why would Moses stress these things that seem so trivial? Why did Moses Stress so hard "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD? Why did he tell them "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might"? And whyd did he day "And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart"? And why did Moses say "And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up, And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates"? (Deut 6:4-9)

    Why did Moses get hung up here? Why did he get so hung up to where he had to tell them to TEACH THEM DILIGENTLY UNTO THEY CHILDREN AND SHALT TALK OF THEM WHEN THOU SITTEST IN THINE HOUSE, AND WHEN THOU WALKEST BY THE WAY, AND WHEN THOU LIEST DOWN, AND WHEN THOU RISEST UP. AND THOU SHALT BIND THEM FOR A SIGN UPON THINE HAND AND THEY SHALL BE AS FRONTLETS BETWEEN THINE EYES, AND THOU SHALT WRITE THEM UPON THE POSTS OF THY HOUSE AND ON THY GATES?

    Can you not see that these people were getting ready to enter a place where these houses and theses places that they were about to live were going to have many Gods that they did not know. There were going to be many Idols that were worshiped that they were not supposed to worship. It was so important for them to know "Hear Ol Israel the Lord our God is One Lord" to a degree that moses told them to teach them diligently unto thy children, to talk of them when thou sittest in thine house and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down and when thou risest up. It was so important that he said for them to Bind them for a sign upon thine hand and they shall be as frontlest between thine eyes and thoug shalt write them upon the posts of thy house and on thy Gates.

    Lets come together and reason with each other? If you are suggesting that the word “Elohim” means “God is three” then I challenge you to show me how the Golden Calf that the Israelites worshiped is Three in One (Exodus 32:1, 4, 8, 23, 31). Care to take the challenge? I also want to ask you about Baalzebub (II Kings 1:2-3). Was he “One God/Three persons?

    If I followed a Doctrine I could not explain, I think I would find a new one. I don’t understand why people have such a hard time explaining a Trinity if there really is one. The bible says in Romans 1:20 that the Godhead is not without excuse. If your doctrine can’t explain it maybe we should listen to the Apostolic Doctrine (i.e. the bible)

    God Bless

    Brian

    [ March 17, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]
     
  6. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    The doctrine of the Trinity is absolutely essential to Christianity although the word 'Trinity' is not. If there were simply 3 manifestations of one Person, then we have a Person who is a liar, for He is one Person and yet claiming to be 3 Persons! If one Person claims to be His own Father and at the same time His own Son, would you not consider Him to have lied? (This that liar Simon Magus did do, claiming to be the Father in one place, the Son in another and the Spirit in another.) But if we have 3 Persons, One claiming to be the Father and Another to be the Son and Another to be the Spirit, then are they not liars. And although they are 3 persons they are one God for they are all of the same uncreated essence and co-eternal together. (As was pointed out, Christ Jesus is called Everlasting Father but this is different from Him calling Himself His own Father which He would be doing if there were 3 manifestations of one Person rather than 3 Persons.)

    1 Jn 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." -- One in the record they bear, in essence, judgement, etc. but yet 3 as concerning the number of persons, for they bear different names and are able to say to one another "Let US make man..." as in Gen 1:26.

    [ March 17, 2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  7. AITB

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    To ONENESS and MEE:

    I should have been clearer, in my original post.

    I was thinking of people who believe Jesus is not God...I should have been more specific. I overlooked that what I wrote also describes 'oneness' folks.

    In my opinion there's a big difference between the beliefs of those people who reject the doctrine of the Trinity and believe Jesus is not God and the beliefs of those who reject it but do believe Jesus is God.

    Helen/AITB
     
  8. DHK

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    This is the thinking of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. If I can’t understand it I reject. I cant’ understand the deity of Christ: how God could become a man, therefore I reject it.
    I don’t understand how electricity works, but that doesn’t mean that I reject it. I would be very foolish indeed if rejected everything that I did not understand. (I don’t understand my wife, much less God). There are many things in the Bible that I don’t understand. I don’t understand everything about creation, the Flood, the resurrection, the virgin birth, Old Testament theophanies, Moses and the burning bush, the crossing of the Red Sea, etc. Do I believe these things. You better believe that I do! I believe all the Word of God, and that includes the trinity as well which clearly says:

    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    A finite mind cannot understand an infinite God. To say that you can, is to admit that you are God. That is heresy. Even Paul said:

    Romans 11:33-36
    33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
    35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    I cannot understand God, he says. Who has known the mind of the Lord? O depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God. He is unsearchable!!

    And you say you will not believe because you cannot understand. Incredible!

    1. There is only one God.
    Isa.43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    2. Jesus Christ is that God.
    John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    3. The Holy Spirit is God.
    3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

    All three are God. All three are one. All three are found in both New Testament and Old Testament. They are not manifestations one of the other. They are persons that have and will exist for all eternity—three persons in one God.
    DHK
     
  9. ONENESS

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    DHK, you know my position on the Godhead. You know I dont claim to understand the mind of God.

    So please dont take what I say out of Context so you can make me look like a fool. :D

    Thank you.
     
  10. DHK

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    That wasn't my intention ONENESS.
    My intention was to show how clearly the Bible teahes the trinity--that all three persons are divine. They are God, and have been for all eternity. The Bible makes a clear case for this.
    DHK
     
  11. ONENESS

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    That wasn't my intention ONENESS.
    My intention was to show how clearly the Bible teahes the trinity--that all three persons are divine. They are God, and have been for all eternity. The Bible makes a clear case for this.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]DHK, I just dont understand how a trinitarian can say they believe in three seperate persons but they dont believe in three seperate Spirits. I dont understand how someone can say they believe in three seperate persons but not three seperate Lords.

    If the Father is Lord and the Son is Lord and each are seperate then how can you say you dont have two seperate lords?

    Get back with you tomorrow.

    God bless
     
  12. MEE

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    Helen, sorry if I misunderstood you. :(

    It may be a good idea to post an example of what religion/religions that you may be referring to.

    If not, this may end up in another Trinity/Oneness debate....or, you could ask for the topic to be deleted.


    MEE [​IMG]
     
  13. Johnv

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    Is this person a Christian?

    Yes. The only thing that matters in salvation is accepting Christ as one's savior.

    Trinitarian doctrine, while of greatest importance, is not a salvific issue.
     
  14. 3AngelsMom

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    Helen AITB,

    Thanks for starting this discussion outside of the other one.

    YES, I am a Christian.

    That is what you want to know, right?

    Just because I do not buy into the Trinity doctrine, does not remove my relationship with Jesus, or my trust in His ability and promise to save me, and forgive my sins.

    I don't know why you are even ASKING if I believe that Jesus is God or not.

    I didn't imply that I didn't believe that, and you are imposing on me you own preconcieved ideas about non trinitarians.

    Please do not do that! :D

    I believe that Jesus is the EXACT image of His Father, a complete and total 'replicate' if you will.

    Is His Father God?

    Jesus is the Express image of the Father.
    Jesus is the WORD of God.
    Jesus is the Son of God, by nature, by mind, and by literal earthly Sonship.
    Jesus is the Lord.
    Jesus is the Savior of the world.
    Jesus is the Rock, the Chief Cornerstone.
    Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of the Father.
    Jesus worshipped the Father.
    Jesus prayed to the Father.
    Jesus commanded me to worship God, and pray to the Father, in His name.
    Jesus was tempted in every way that we are, yet did not sin.
    Jesus was offered up as the Supreme Sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.
    Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in heaven.
    Jesus will come again, and bring us to Himself.
    Jesus is the firstborn of the dead.
    Jesus will raise the dead with the WORD of God.
    Jesus was given the Revelation by God.
    Jesus gave it to an Angel, and the angel gave it to John.
    Jesus has made us priests to HIS God, and HIS Father.

    [​IMG]

    God Bless

    (ps. all that was from the Bible btw)
     
  15. BobRyan

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    I accept the "One God in Three Persons" concept of the Trinity - however in 2Tim 3:13-17 we find an interesting statement about salvation and the OT.

    Basically very few Hebrews were "Trinitarian" - yet we can hardly fault them as believing in a false God instead of the "One True God". And Paul states that Timothy was saved even before becoming a Christian. Certainly it is not possible to argue that mankind was lost for the first 4000 years of Earth's history.

    So to my fellow Trinitarians I ask - how can you accuse non-trinitarians of believing in "another God" when that would of necessity include the Jews?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. neal4christ

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    While this is for another thread, I would like to point out a couple of things. First, I believe the correct idea is 'receiving' Christ, not 'accepting' (John 1:12). Also, I feel it is necessary for one to acknowledge who Christ is, i.e. God, for salvation (Rom. 10:9). While I do not feel one has to understand or necessarily believe the Trinity for salvation, they do have to acknowldge Christ as Lord, not just a savior, and receive Him.

    Neal
     
  17. neal4christ

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    Just wondering, where does Paul state this in 2 Tim. 3:13-17?

    Neal
     
  18. AITB

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    It was me that was unclear - don't worry about it. [​IMG]

    I don't mind that being part of the thread.

    No, I don't want it to be deleted - it's going fine [​IMG] . Thanks for your comments! [​IMG]

    (And thanks to everyone else too who has shared thoughts in this thread so far [​IMG] )

    Helen/AITB
     
  19. AITB

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    You're welcome - I did realize I was taking things off-topic on your thread, to ask you about your view of the doctrine of the Trinity.

    I appreciate you responding here because it was what you said that led to me opening this thread. However, I was looking for input from whoever wanted to comment, on my initial question.

    I assumed that you would say you're a Christian.

    I don't really understand how Jesus can save anyone if he's not God - but on the other hand I see that you do believe he can, based on what you said.

    I don't remember if I asked that on the other thread. I didn't on this one.

    However as far as I can see, you do not believe Jesus is God else you would have said so instead of listing what you did below, which I agree is Biblical, but which falls short of that affirmation.

    I have no preconceptions. I am simply noticing that you are avoiding saying "Jesus is God". If you believed it you would say it. The implication is that you don't believe he is.

    The easy way to resolve this is for you to say you believe Jesus is God. But if you cannot say that then what can I conclude except that you do not believe he is God?

    So - with all due respect - there are two Gods, if Jesus is an exact replica of God his Father?

    His Father is God the Father.

    In John's gospel (as Helen S posted, I think, on the other thread) Jesus says "I am", in my opinion deliberately using the name of the LORD, of YHWH.

    Then - he is God according to John 1:1 - case closed.

    Same word as used for YHWH.

    The same expressions are used of YHWH.

    I don't see how these statements contradict the doctrine of the Trinity.

    But Jesus is God with us; Jesus is the Word who is God and Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

    You too! [​IMG]

    I know - I recognize the statements.

    Thanks for your response, 3AM! [​IMG]

    Helen/AITB
     
  20. 3AngelsMom

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    Helen, AITB,

    You said that if I say that Jesus is the Express image of His Father, that there are TWO GODS???

    What do you think the TRINITY is teaching?

    That there is ONLY ONE???

    If the FATHER is GOD, and JESUS is the Express IMAGE of HIS FATHER, then JESUS IS GOD TOO!!!!

    Why is that so hard for you to see???

    Why do I need to SAY the sky is blue for you to know that I can see that the sky is BLUE???

    I think I made myself QUITE clear that Jesus IS the WORD.

    WHO IS THE WORD? GOD

    I said HE IS LORD.

    WHO IS THE LORD? GOD.

    You said you had no preconcieved ideas???

    YEAH RIGHT!

    [ March 18, 2003, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]
     

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