What follows is the initial series of posts from the beginning of the creation/evolution board. People are establishing positions and stating what they believe to be true. In the original series there were several ideas which were developed more fully, such as theistic evolution. These have been removed and are part of the beginning series dedicated to explain that position in its own thread. This series has been condensed to simply establish the fact of different points of view and as an introduction to everything that will follow. Pulled out from the middle of the initial series is a post by Lorelei which is a good reminder to all here. The post by Sage, which follows, is actually the start of this series. The Administrator * * * LORELEI It is important to delve deeper into God's word and try to understand the full meaning and literal interpretation of the scripture. We must get past the milk and seek the meat of the Word. But before we can do this we must place our faith in the Word and in God, the author of that Word. If we know Christ as our personal Savior, then we have the Holy Spirit to help reveal it's truth to us. We must also believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and that it is infallible. This comes from Faith. I was reminded of the passage in Romans 1: 18-23. 18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them, 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into and image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." Though I think it is important to know and understand the time frame of the creation for our own purpose, one thing you must do is remember, no matter how old the earth is, God made it. That is the message that of Genesis1. God made the earth and all that is within it. We can research these verses for days, weeks, even years, and no matter what other findings may be revealed, it still holds true that God is the creator. If you get stuck on this one point, and never get past these scriptures, you are denying yourself the pleasure of learning all of what God has to say. Am I saying that everyone here is wasting their time? No, of course not. I too am still learning more about this and that is why I was reading all that has been said. But I will also read more of the scripture and will continue to pray for God's guidance in understanding it. God's word is not for the well educated alone; it is for everyone. His Spirit is there to help you understand. Remember, many who profess to be wise have become fools. Just let your lack of understanding be a reminder that we need to place our faith in Him. As we continue to grow in His love and His Word we will find the answers that we seek. So continue to research and study to show yourself approved, just don't let all the theories, theologies and scientific evidence get in your way of moving forward. 2 Peter 1:19-21 19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." As for me, I will continue to read and gather information from the great resources listed here. I will form my opinion in time, but I will trust in God that no how old the earth is, he still made it and he will always fulfill his promise to us. Lorelei * * * SAGE Hey,I'm a literal six day creationist, and was surprised to find how many people on this board (previous) believed in the theory of evolution (theistic evolution, day-age, gap-theory, old-earth, etc.). Is there anyone out there interested in this subject, or in discussing it with me?? JOSEPH BOTWINICK Sure, I am game. What would you like to discuss? SAGE Out of curiosity, do you hold to something other than literal six day creationisim, or are you playing devil's advocate? JOSEPH BOTWINICK If you mean a literal 24 hour six day period of time as we understand it today, then no I don't. KIFFIN I hold to a literal 6 day creation though not that the earth is only 6,000 years old. Those who hold to day-age, gap-theory, old-earth are not Theistic evolutionists generally speaking. Darwin was a theistic evolutionist and the other views differ sharply with him. The gap theory of Scofield seems to have not enough scriptural backing but Hugh Ross's Day-age theory is very interesting though he hasn't won me to his position. This is an area that should not be a test of fellowship in that literal 6 day creation, day-age, gap-theory, all confess that God created Man apart from evolution. ARS OK, to throw my two cents in, all I have to say is this. By saying that God could not literally create the world in 6 days and that the world is not approximately 6000 years old, then aren’t you denying the deity of God. He is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. He could, and I believe, did create the world in 6 literal days. Thus begun the first day. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1;4 and 5. This is the creation of the first literal day. And you need the literal to create the figurative upon. If there was no definition for a literal day, how could it be used as a metaphor? BWSMITH I'm a Christian and an evolutionist. Gen 1-11 is not literal science or history but conveys theological truth through symbolism. History begins with Abraham. KIFFIN Ars, I hold to a literal 6 day creation because it fits the text and the other views bring an unnatural feel to the text that seems to contradict the other views. On the other hand being a being a literal 6 day creationists does not mean one believes the earth is only 6,000 years old. That is a theory of Bishop Ussher that is unprovable and based upon bad research on his part. I personally don't know how old the earth is. In defense of Day agers however they will argue that the Hebrew word for day "Yom" can also mean a period of time. They are not denying God's power but simply God chose to create over a period of ages rather than 6 days. God could have done it in less than a milli-second we all know but chose instead 6 days. The problem with Day age is that it brings a unnatural feel to Genesis 1-2 that indicates 6 literal days. JOY How do you know it wasn't a literal 6 days? Were you there? And before you say anything, no I wasn't there either, but I know Someone who was! I take His Word for it. KIFFIN BWSmith, The problem with saying that History begins with Abraham is that Paul in the New Testament indicates that Adam and Eve were literal people and not just symbols. Jesus indicates that Noah was a literal person also. How does one deal with the origin of Sin if they deny a literal Adam. Does not this indicate that one would have to deny inerrancy of Scripture and denial of Total depravity or Original Sin? ARS OK, one additional note. The best way I can put it is faith. By placing our faith in today’s secular science, we are taking our faith off of God. We must trust in the Lord and not in man’s wisdom. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Proverbs 3; 5 For the wisdom of man, is nothing compared to the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Corinthians 1; 25-29 BOB ALKIRE If the first 3 chapters aren't true, why do we need a saviour? Just a trucker thinking, and that is hard for me to do. R5DOTS I am not well-versed in the Bible and I'm new to the board so please be patient...does it specifically say in the Bible that God did not create evolution? Is it ok for us to believe that God in His infinite wisdom, made the whole thing happen the way scientists believe? BOB ALKIRE r5dots, Evolution scientists believe what we have in our public schools but creation scientist don't. Yes you may believe whatever you wish. I believe the reality of supernatural creation and the Creator's sovereign rule of the world. May you read and learn and come to your conclusion. God bless R5DOTS What exactly is it that they are teaching in the schools these days? SAGE Hmm, were to start? A lot has happened since I last visited (3 hours ago). Let me give some reasons why I believe in a literal six days. 1. If one holds to Day-Age then how did the trees, grass, and vegetation (day 3) survive many years w/out the sun (day 4)and the birds, and insects (day 5&6) to pollinate them? Vegetation cannot survive for years w/out these variables. 2. We take one day of rest just as God took one day. 3. What would be the purpose of "evening and morning" if this were not a literal day? As far as the age of the Earth goes, that the Earth has been in existence for around 6,000 years, however I am not opposed to the idea that God made a "mature" Earth. God made Adam as an adult(as far as I know), He made "great whales" (Gen.1:21)and trees w/ fruit already on it(Gen.1:11). So, conceivably God may have made the Earth with age already in it. To those who deny creation completely, or even worse the first eleven chapters, you put in jeopardy the entire Bible, for almost every book in the Bible refers to the creation or the first 11 chapters ! Not to mention that Jesus himself refers to the creation of Adam and Eve! WILL The bible is not a scientific textbook, it doesn't try to answer the how of everything. If it did it would be about 90 volumes, pretty hard to take to church. The beauty of the Bible is that it speaks to people of all intelligence levels. You don't have to be a Physicist to understand it. I believe Genesis is the word of God, I don't however believe in a literal 6 day creation or in a 6000 year old earth. To me Genesis 1 and 2 are clearly an infinite being communicate to a finite being in a way the finite being can understand. Not trying to tell us things we couldn't understand. What is a day? Were they days before the Earth was created and circled the Sun? Read Genesis 2:15-22. Was Adam a speed namer or what? If it's literal, a lot happened on that one day, didn't it? Several people have said why couldn't God have created in a literal 6 days. He could have. Why couldn't he create in 6 nanoseconds? Why not 6 billion years? Why not let God be God? DON Last summer, a group of scientists used the Hubble telescope to make some predictions about the age of the universe. They determined that the previously accepted age of 20 billion years was wrong, and that the universe was actually somewhere around 15 billion years old. A group of scientists at NASA studied their findings, and determined that the first group had interjected an assumption in one point of their calculations; finessing the assumption to a more correct figure dropped the age of the universe to 12 billion years old. Today, it was reported that scientists have made a startling discovery about our solar system. The two satellites Pioneer 9 and 10 (or was that 10 and 11?), each headed in opposite directions, are not as far out as they're supposed to be. Faced with this disturbing thought, scientists are now trying to figure out what gravitational or other effect might be causing the two satellites to slow down. Last summer, the "missing link" between dinosaurs and birds was found. It was then reported about a month later that it not the missing link after all, but some dinosaur bones that had fossilized and then had feathers sometime (much?) later fossilize on top of them. The point is, those of us that are trusting science to tell us how old the world and the universe is, are still waiting for science to tell us how old the world and the universe is.... Hugh Ross puts his faith in God and science, basing his logic on "God is not a liar." God does not lie, he postulates; therefore, if the earth appears to be 4.5 billion years old, it must be. D. Russell Humphreys, a physicist with Sandia Laboratories in New Mexico, puts his faith solely in God, and has written several treatises, including a book called "Starlight and Time" which address how the universe could be exactly the age the Bible tells us it is. I personally believe the Bible is inspired. Genesis 1 is the ONLY passage in the entire bible where a day is specifically limited using the words "morning" and "evening." The ONLY one. If God is not a liar, and the Bible is His Word, written by His inspired authors, why would He specifically say the evening and the morning were the day? FIREDOME Will, You said in your post you stated that you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but my question is do you believe the Word of God? If the Bible were to be a textbook there would be no need for faith. I wonder, would a child say "I can't believe the world was created in 6 literal days" or would they say "Daddy did you see that pretty little flower that God made for us to see and smell?" SAGE Just some things to think about: 1. If Evolution is accurate, then there was death occurring for millions of years before Adam and Eve. According to Romans 5:12 "...sin entered the world through one man(Adam)and death through sin..." So if Romans says death did not occur until Adam how could there be death for millions of years before Adam? 2. If organisms have been evolving for millions of years, there should be literally thousands of intermediate fossils (missing links), yet there are NONE. Why? 3. Why are there no intermediate organisms now? Statistically is it possible that just by chance we live in an era that everything is in a "complete" state? 4. Isn't it interesting that in 2Peter 3:5-6 warns against "scoffers" in the last days saying, For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" This is specifically for those who question the first 11 chapters (the flood specifically) of Genesis. 5.If you deny the first 11 chapters as literal, than why in Hebrews 11:4-7 does God use three fictitious characters (Abel, Enoch, and Noah) as examples of men of faith, right along with a bunch of men who really existed?