The Jehovah Witness do not salute any flag.

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben W, May 28, 2005.

  1. Ben W

    Ben W
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    Speaking of flags, that discussion reminded me that one time the Jehovahs Witnesses told me that they do not have flags in their churches, I just had a look at Wikepedia and that appears to be so. Based on what they have said, should Christians be saluting flags?

    - Neutrality

    Jehovah's Witnesses also do not salute the flag of any country for two reasons. First, to do so would be a compromise of their belief of being politically neutral. Secondly, they believe that such an act would be tantamount to worshiping an idol. Correspondingly, they do not use any images or icons in their worship, including the symbol of the cross. Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from voting in elections, but not prohibited from voting. (Watchtower 1 Nov 1999. p.28) They do not run for any political office, following the example Jesus set in fleeing from those who sought to make him king. (John 6:15)
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I am not sure what connection JW's have at all to Christianity and why we would consider anything they teach as to how we should live our lives.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. Ben W

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    Maybe they have a similar connection to the Oneness groups that are permitted to post here? Do they not view God as the Oneness groups do?
     
  4. robycop3

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    While Onenessers believe in modalism...that the one God changes into the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit according to the situation, the JWs believe that only Jehovah, Yahweh, The Father, is God...that Jesus is some kinda created-being "demigod" & that He was once the archangel Michael...& that the Holy Spirit is not a distince Being, but is a "force", as in "Star wars", God's method for interacting with humans.

    As Joseph said, NONE of their garbage has any place in Baptist worship. It's a real challenge to witness to members of these cults, and we must have the help of the HOLY SPIRIT to succeed.
     
  5. RockRambler

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    While I am not defending JW, I think it is an interesting question about saluting the flag or saying the pledge of allegiance. I've always saluted the American flag as a sign of respect, but I don't say the Pledge. My allegiance is to Christ, not a government.

    Doesn't make me right or wrong, just an individual.
     
  6. Soulman

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    Posted by Joseph Botwinick: I am not sure what connection JW's have at all to Christianity and why we would consider anything they teach as to how we should live our lives.

    Amen Joseph!
     
  7. whetstone

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    where is the patriotism here? Saluting the flag and repeating a pledge is not idolatry or a compromise of worshipping God any more than waving to your parents or pledging your love to a spouse is! Let's not get carried away here. America is a great country founded by Godly men and it should make us swell with respect and loyalty to the men that died for our freedom. There is nothing wrong with thanking God for blessing our country and remembering the wounded and dead that went before (represented in the red and white on our flag). It's sad no one that has yet posted sees anything wrong with the OP.
     
  8. DHK

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    As they spread their devious doctrines of non-patriotism, throughout the lands of the world to which they disseminate their various other heresies, they do much disservice for the cause of Christianity.

    For example, in a typical Muslim nation, the only differentiantion between Christianity that a Muslim will make is between Catholicism and Protestantism. If you are not a Catholic you are a Protestant. J.W.'s thus are filed under Protestants just like all the other cults.
    They teach rebellion against a nation's government. Those who joint them are taught not to salute the flag, nor to join the army in nations that are fiercly patriotic. This is absolutely wrong. It is teaching one to have disrespect for one's own nation.
    If I were a missionary to America, and I were to teach you not to join the Armed Forces, neither your sons, nor ever to salute the flage of the U.S. of A. what would you think of me as a missionary to your country? How effective would I be in opposing your government?

    This is the the stench that they leave behind in other nations, the reputation that other Christians have to deal with in explaining that we are not J.W.'s, and that they are not Christians. Sometmes it is a hard thing to do, to explain in another nation (such as a Muslim nation) that we are different than they. Remember in the Gulf War, the only difference between Iraq and America, was that America was Christian and Iraq was Muslim.
    DHK
     
  9. Soulman

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    For a religion that claims to know it's bible inside and out, they actually know nothing of it's true content. In fact it is impossible to even call their translation a bible!
     
  10. RockRambler

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    I salute the flag out of respect for the country and those who have fought under its banner. I just don't pledge allegiance to a country. Neither did the Godly men who founded this country. [​IMG]

    Again, I don't think saying or not saying the pledge is right or wrong, just an individual choice.
     
  11. Marcia

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    JW's are under the bondage of false beliefs and legalistic rules. Not saluting flags is just part of it. They are not allowed to celebrate birthdays nor any holidays. It's not they think it through and decide not to do these things -- they are told not to do them. They believe the Watchtower Society is the mouthpiece of God and what is says, goes.
     
  12. 2 Corinthian 12:9

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    If the "elder" see any person(s) carry a flag with them on a car(s) to their "church". The elder would immediately eliminate Jehovah Witness person from the church. Sadly, they don't honor patronic or never say how proud they are being American.
     
  13. superdave

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    So what scripture from the Holy Bible do they use to determine that doctrine...yeah thats what I thought, someone sucked it out of their thumb.

    Patriotism is not idolatry, overzealous nationalism could be perhaps.
     
  14. robycop3

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    Jesus Christ said we are to obey the govt. since GOD had caused/allowed it to be. However, the JFWs have their own Jesus who's NOT the Christ.

    The JFWs forget that it's this govt. which protects their right to not be Christiansand to follow those charlatans in the watch Tower.

    Superdave, they don't have a Holy Bible...they have a version made by altering a real Bible...the RV...to match the JFW doctrines. Like most cultists, they have more loyalty and reverence for their gurus than they do for God or their nation.
     
  15. Sonjeo

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    It seems few churchs have every last thing in order but the JW's seem to have some things correct that other churches reel back from. Although I consider them in error where the diety of Jesus Christ is concerned, I consider them correct where the flag and nationalism is concerned. The church, that is, the kingdom of God should be "in nations" but not "of nations". That is to say they should not be too attached to the interests of any nation to the point of compromising biblical teachings, whether economic,social or political for the interests of a nation. God's kingdom covers the earth and the church should see itself in this light, not a nationalistic one. The church should lead the way and attempt to teach the nation and all nations to walk in the ways of God. This is the purity of Christ's church. Nationalistic fevor is more of a misleading spirit than anything else. I remember the sunday after the U.S. invaded Iraq, me and my wife walked in to church to see a giant U.S. flag stretched across the stage much like the one in the movie, "Patton". It was a strange feeling that sunday as some folks came down the aisle waving their flag and as soon as the congregation was cognizant of the carried flags presence the entire congregation jumped to it's feet in a kind of sudden jerked response that had never been given to God's business, whether prayer or song, and when prayer did come up it was only for Americans or the soldiers without mention of innocent Iraqi's or even it's women & children who would be likely killed by bombing.Is the nation really first in our lives or is God? All I got to say is; we better get it right and it better show. Playing Ray Boltz's "Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb" now and then through the church sound system would probably help keep these things in perspective. [​IMG]
     
  16. dianetavegia

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    Since JW's are not Christian, let alone Baptist, I'm going to move this out of General Baptist Discussion to allow a more open discussion of flags in churches.

    Diane
     
  17. Sonjeo

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    Although the Jehovah Witnesses may be right about some things if they are not right about Jesus Christ then they are in the wrong arena. If they believe that Jesus was just divine but not a deity then they have problems. I have friends in JW's and they will say that Jesus was 100% man but then when we explain the immaculate part of the conception they back off. Obviously He is part Spirit of God. They firmly oppose the concept of the Trinity and no doubt it is because that would make Jesus deity but it is difficult to see how they get around Jesus saying "When you see Me you see the Father" and "I and the Father are One", especially the latter.
     
  18. Claudia_T

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    Well Im not up on what Jehovah's Witnesses believe in when it comes to patriotism and the government, but being that I am a Seventh Day Adventist, I do know that it is possible to not believe in voting or getting mixed up in politics, but yet to be at the same time very patriotic towards one's country and also to believe in obeying our government as long as what they tell you to do doesnt conflict with what the God and the Bible tells you to do.

    Unfortunately, too many confuse the Seventh Day Adventists with the Jehovah's Witnesses... but this is an example of what one typical Seventh Day Adventist gave in the way of not believing in killing anybody in a war, yet being very patriotic towards the United States... Please read it, it made me cry when I read it. This is about the story of Desmond Doss:


    http://www.homeofheroes.com/profiles/profiles_doss.html

    http://www.homeofheroes.com/profiles/profiles_doss2.html

    http://www.homeofheroes.com/profiles/profiles_doss3.html


    And as far as the Jehovah's Witnesses belief in Jesus being Michael the Archangel goes, the Seventh Day Adventists also believe that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one and the same... but we most certainly do not believe that Jesus is not God... we believe Jesus is God. Here you can see what we believe about that subject:

    http://www.biblelight.net/michael.htm

    http://www.nisbett.com/library/ir-who_is_michael.html


    ...but as I said, I am not really up on what Jehovah's Witnesses believe when it comes to patriotism. A Christian most certainly ought to salute the American Flag and be loyal to the United States and ought to obey it's leaders unless they ask you to go against what God and the Bible tell us to do. In that case we ought to do this:

    Acts:5:27-29:
    27: And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
    28: Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
    29: Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.


    I believe in the separation of Church and State and do not believe in the Government trying to force people to any religious belief or practice. God doesnt delight in the use of force, He delights on obedience done out of love for Him and for our neighbor.


    Also Jesus said "My Kingdom is not of this world.


    The kingdom of God comes not with outward show. The gospel of the grace of God, with its spirit of self-abnegation, can never be in harmony with the spirit of the world. The two principles are antagonistic. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor. 2:14.

    But today in the religious world there are multitudes who, as they believe, are working for the establishment of the kingdom of Christ as an earthly and temporal dominion. They desire to make our Lord the ruler of the kingdoms of this world, the ruler in its courts and camps, its legislative halls, its palaces and market places. They expect Him to rule through legal enactments, enforced by human authority. Since Christ is not now here in person, they themselves will undertake to act in His stead, to execute the laws of His kingdom. The establishment of such a kingdom is what the Jews desired in the days of Christ. They would have received Jesus, had He been willing to establish a temporal dominion, to enforce what they regarded as the laws of God, and to make them the expositors of His will and the agents of His authority. But He said, "My kingdom is not of this world." John 18:36. He would not accept the earthly throne.

    The government under which Jesus lived was corrupt and oppressive; on every hand were crying abuses,--extortion, intolerance, and grinding cruelty. Yet the Saviour attempted no civil reforms. He attacked no national abuses, nor condemned the national enemies. He did not interfere with the authority or administration of those in power. He who was our example kept aloof from earthly governments. Not because He was indifferent to the woes of men, but because the remedy did not lie in merely human and external measures. To be efficient, the cure must reach men individually, and must regenerate the heart.

    Not by the decisions of courts or councils or legislative assemblies, not by the patronage of worldly great men, is the kingdom of Christ established, but by the implanting of Christ's nature in humanity through the work of the Holy Spirit. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12, 13. Here is the only power that can work the uplifting of mankind. And the human agency for the accomplishment of this work is the teaching and practicing of the word of God.


    ------------------

    Claudia Thompson

    http://www.christiangraphics.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
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  19. Claudia_T

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    Christians need to realize that mixing Church and State inevitably leads to persecution. And so yes, we ought to obey our Government and be patriotic, but we also need to realize a few things... when it comes to Christianity and the Government. But you know what? I believe Satan uses groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses that go to extremes on things (such as not saluting the American Flag) to get others too see the wrong in that and then go to the opposite extreme... in obeying the Government no matter what. We need to have a BALANCE and read everything the Bible has to say about these things..


    The Powers That Be

    Who should be subject to civil government?
    "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." Romans 13:1.

    By whom are the powers ordained?
    "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." Romans 13:1.

    What does one resist who resists just civil authority?
    "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation." Romans 13:2.

    What are the proper sphere and work of civil authorities?
    "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." Romans 13:3,4.

    Who is it that receives the enforcement of law?
    "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers." 1 Timothy 1:9.

    How should Christians respect civil authority?
    "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work." Titus 3:1.
    "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." 1 Peter 2:13-17.
    "For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour." Romans 13:6,7.

    In what words does Christ reveal that there are two spheres of authority: one that belongs to earthly governments, and another, higher one, that belongs to God alone?
    "They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Matthew 22:21.

    To whom alone did Jesus say that worship can and must be given to?
    "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Matthew 4:10.

    What decree did King Nebuchadnezzar once make to all the citizens of his empire?
    "That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up: And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace." Daniel 3:5,6.

    What answer did the three faithful Hebrew captives give?
    "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up." Daniel 3:16-18.

    What did Nebuchadnezzar then do?
    "And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace." Daniel 3:20.

    After their miraculous deliverance, what did Nebuchadnezzar then declare to everyone?
    "Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God." Daniel 3:28.

    In what way alone were the envious leaders of Medo-Persia able to complain about Daniel?
    "Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God." Daniel 6:5.

    What religious law did they succeed in urging the king to enact?
    "All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions." Daniel 6:7.

    Did Daniel obey this new governmental edict?
    "Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime." Daniel 6:10.

    What was done to Daniel for disobeying it?
    "Then the king commanded, and they brought Daniel, and cast him into the den of lions. Now the king spake and said unto Daniel, Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee." Daniel 6:16.

    What did Darius say when Daniel was taken out of the lions' den?
    "And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: and the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?" Daniel 6:20.

    What was Daniel's reply to the king?
    "Then said Daniel unto the king, O king, live for ever. My God hath sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, that they have not hurt me: forasmuch as before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt." Daniel 6:21,22.

    What parting command did Christ give to His disciples?
    "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15.

    What counter command did the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem soon give them?
    "And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus." Acts 4:18.

    What reply did Peter and John give to these authorities?
    "But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard." Acts 4:19,20.

    For continuing to preach the Word of God, after being forbidden to do so, what was the result?
    "Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation, And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison." Acts 5:17,18.

    Did God then reveal Himself to be on the side of governmental authorities when they did wrong?
    "But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life." Acts 5:19,20.

    When the apostles were called before the council again, what question did the high priest ask them?
    "Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." Acts 5:28.

    What reply did the apostles make to the authorities?
    "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29.

    Who is higher than the "higher powers" of this earth?
    "If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they." Ecclesiastes 5:8.

    Because Mordecai refused to bow down before Haman, a leading official of Medo-Persia, what emperial decree did Haman succeed in enacting?
    "And the letters were sent by posts into all the king's provinces, to destroy, to kill, and to cause to perish, all Jews, both young and old, little children and women, in one day, even upon the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, which is the month Adar, and to take the spoil of them for a prey." Esther 3:13.

    What is religion?
    "The recognition of God as an object of worship, love, and obedience." Webster. Other definitions equally good are: "The duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it." "Man's personal relation of faith and obedience to God."

    In religious things, whom alone dare we call "Father"?
    "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Matthew 23:9.

    When tempted to bow down before Satan, what reply did Christ make?
    "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Matthew 4:10.(See also Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:30.)

    To whom alone, then, is each one accountable in religion?
    "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." Romans 14:12.

    What do those do, therefore, who make men accountable to them in matters of religion?
    They put themselves in the place of God. (See 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4.)

    Why is it, that in areas of religion, Christ declared that men must not be called masters?
    "Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." Matthew 23:10.

    To whom, then, as servants of God, are we responsible in matters of faith and worship?
    "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand." Romans 14:4.

    Whose servants are we not to be?
    "Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." 1 Corinthians 7:23.

    Where must all men finally appear to render account of their lives and actions?
    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10.

    Union of Church and State

    What was already at work in the church in Paul's day?
    "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

    What class of men did he warn were to soon arise in the church?
    "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." Acts 20:29,30.

    What apostasy in the church was to develop before Christ would return the second time?
    "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

    How was this "falling away" from Bible truth shown?
    By the adoption of heathen rites and customs in the church.

    What came to be the character and work of many of the religious leaders?
    'Worldly-minded bishops, instead of caring for the salvation of their flocks, were often but too much inclined to travel about, and entangle themselves in worldly concerns." Neander, General History of the Christian Religion and Church (Torrey's translation} , Vol. 2, p. 16.

    What has been the special characteristic of the papacy?
    A union of church and state, or the religious power dominating the civil power to further its ends.

    When was the union of church and state formed, from which the papacy gained its control over the civil powers?
    The foundation was laid for it during the reign of Constantine, A.D. 313-337, and it developed under his successors.

    How was this governmental patronage of the church shown under Constantine and later rulers?
    Immunities, privileges, and certain judicial functions for the clergy, and gifts, endowments, and financial support for the church; first on a basis of equality with the priesthood and temples of paganism, then on a preferred basis, and finally to the exclusion of all except Catholic orthodoxy.

    ------------------

    Claudia Thompson

    http://www.christiangraphics.org
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
    http://www.templatehog.com
     
  20. Claudia_T

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