The Judgement of man

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Jan 22, 2012.

  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    The bible speaks of judgement. Both the believer and the un-believer will be judged although the judging is for different purposes between the two. The believer will be judged for their place in the kingdom and the unbeliever for their place in eternal torment.

    While we are saved by grace alone through faith alone we still will be judged by or if we have kept the commandments which proves if we have actually been saved.

    How does the Bible summarize the answer to our question, "By what standard will we be judged"?
    "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether it is good or whether it is evil." Ecclesiastes 12:13,14

    Are God's commandments burdensome to those who are truly born again?
    "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith." 1 John 5:3, 4

    What motive should prompt us to keep God's law?
    "If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

    1John 2:4
    He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    1 John 3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

    Who will be admitted into heaven?
    "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14

    While we are not saved by commandment keeping we will be judged as to if we have which proves if we are saved or not so why is it then that so many who claim to be saved seem to hate or at least want nothing to do with the commandments?
     
    #1 freeatlast, Jan 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 22, 2012
  2. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
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    I could answer your question more easily if I understood which commandment(s) that you believe so many of us hate or want nothing to do with. And could you outline how that hatred is displayed.

    In other words, you've asked a very generic and broad question.
     
  3. DaChaser1

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    Apostle paul makes it clear that we are saved by the Grace of God being applied to our behalf, received by faith...

    Even IF we had NO good works, or minimal amounts, would still be saved 'But as by Fire!"

    NOT what we should be doing once saved, but would not "unsave us!"
     
  4. beameup

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    There are 613 Commandments.
    http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh [carnal=ego/self],
    but after the Spirit.

    For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law [commandments] of sin and death.

    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh [carnal=ego/self], but after the Spirit.
    - Rom 8:1,2,4
     
    #4 beameup, Jan 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2012
  5. agedman

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    Your statement that keeping the commandments is "proof" of salvation is faulty.

    Will the believer desire to keep the commandments (the ten in specificity) - absolutely.

    Will the believer be unable to keep the commandments (the ten in specificity) - absolutely.

    The proof of salvation does not rest upon the law that convinced one of their need of a savior.

    If one is a believer, they have graduated. They are no longer under the school teacher's authority. They are free from any constraints that the school teacher and the authority of that school system would extend over non-graduates.

    Who is our judge? Who is the one who condemns?

    If Christ is our advocate, and God views us as justified, "there is therefore NO condemnation."

    We believers are graduates, no longer school children needing bound to walk in a line on the right side of the hallway.
     
  6. freeatlast

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    That is not true. All believers are commandment keepers according to scripture.
     
  7. freeatlast

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    I unhderstand your belief but the bible says differently. The problem today is that not many really believe the bible. You are more then welcome to point out how these verses are incorrect.

    Are God's commandments burdensome to those who are truly born again?
    "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith." 1 John 5:3, 4


    What motive should prompt us to keep God's law?
    "If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

    1John 2:4
    He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    1 John 3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

    Who will be admitted into heaven?
    "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14
     
  8. preacher4truth

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    Freeatlast has a valid point about how some today are acting towards the commandments of Christ.

    The indictment of 2 Timothy 3 upon those professing faith in the last days is indicative that such a behavior is true. It's not difficult to dertermine that those who are in such a case are not following the Lords commands. Afterall, the very first trait is worship of self, ("lovers of their own selves") not of God, and other idolatrous practices are described thereafter.

    Now, I may have come across differently than freeatlast in my proposition, but ones perception of how the messenger comes across does not diminish nor invalidate the truths expressed.

    - Peace
     
  9. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
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    Romans 10:1=13
    Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
    For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
    But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
    Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
    But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Why? Because the Law brought only death and jugement while Christ brought life, eternal and abundant. I know I fall short of the Law, that is why I need Jesus, and I will be judged, but not by you.


    There are two themes in scripture, FaL, that run from Genesis to Revelation, and on the surface they are contradictory. The first is the law of sowing and reaping. The day they ate the fruit Adam and Eve died, Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he reap. This is taught in every book of the Bible and is true. This is Law and the judgement.

    The second theme is that we can be forgiven, For God so loved the world. . . , just like he took Israel back every time she turned to false gods, just like he slew the beast to cover Adam and Eve in the garden. We can confess our sins and be forgiven.

    How can these contradictory themes both be true? Only because Jesus paid our penalty under theme one and made theme 2 possible while maintaining the holy righteousness of God.

    FaL, when you emphasize the law and works you are only giving people half the gospel.
     
  10. preacher4truth

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    Brother, I don't think freeatlasts intent is preaching the Gospel, but presenting earmarks of those who are redeemed.

    - Peace
     
  11. agedman

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    I once thought so, too.

    But, having observed his continued return to this theme, I am wondering if there is not a greater issue that impacts upon him.

    Earmarks of the redeemed are great. But keeping the commandments is not an earmark.

    What is the fruit of the Holy Spirit living in the believer? That is the earmarks.

    What is added to the faith by the believer that eventually they may actually love as God loves? That is the earmarks.

    The rich young ruler kept the commandments, and in FAL's view that would be proof positive of the salvation of that young man.

    But Christ deems the believer is better fitted when the Holy Spirit is thriving within than merely keeping the commandments.

    FAL would possibly be better showing the attributes of a believer in comparison to an unbeliever and therefore bringing to the thread the wisdom of discernment rather than judgement.
     
  12. HAMel

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    The lost are judged already.

    Otherwise, there is no burden to being a Christian/Believer.
     
  13. preacher4truth

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    Brother,

    I agree that you present some earmarks. Obeying Christs commands are also those as well. Living under the Law? Not so much. Freedom in Christ to obey Him? Absolutely. His commandments are not grievous to His.

    - Peace
     
  14. agedman

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    Part of a debate is to restate to the agreement of one who is in opposition that which the opposition holds.

    If you understand what I believe, and that the Bible is contrary to what I believe, then I think it most obliging that you engage by stating (to my agreement) what I believe and how it is in Scriptural error.

    To claim that you "understand (my) belief, but the bible says differently" and then post scriptures upon commandment keeping as if that brings veracity isn't proof that the Bible is different that my belief(s).

    I clearly stated that the believer will have a desire to keep the commandments.

    I also clearly stated that the believer will not be able to keep the commandments.

    I stated that it is Christ who is our advocate and God who views us as justified. "there is therefore no condemnation..."

    So, show me my belief and what the Bible clearly says about MY belief that is in error.
     
  15. preacher4truth

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    The rich young ruler was found out. He did not keep the commandments, for he was covetous, which is breaking the commandment and breaks all of them as we know, therefore he left sorrowful. One could also argue that he was dishonest as well. We greatly deceive ourselves if we think we, or anyone actually kept the commandments.

    - Peace
     
  16. agedman

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    I totally agree with this post!

    "Obedience is the very best way to show that we believe..." (Mike and Ruth Greene)

    However, FAL doesn't seem to present the commandments as extensions of the believers desire to please God, but as a condition of determining the salvation of a person.

    The Apostle Paul clearly holds that such is not an indicator. In fact, when the subject was contentious and brought before the first church of Jerusalem the council determined that the law was not at all (with the exception indicated) applicable to the Gentile believers.

    Here is the actual contention and decision.

    Ac 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
    2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
    4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
    5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
    6 ¶ And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
    7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
    8 And God, which knows the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
    9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
    10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
    11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
    12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
    13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
    14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
    17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
    19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
    20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

    21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
    22 ¶ Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
    23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
    24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
    25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
    26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
    28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
    29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

    30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
    31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
    32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

    Now what of the "ten commandments" is to be kept as FAL desires?

    They aren't there. But because the law of Moses was read daily, it is indicated that the believers having knowledge of the high expectation of God would desire to meet that expectation.

    FAL would have to demonstrate that the Apostle's decision was faulty and to be ignored or that he is posting Scriptures in support of his view that are not really supporting his view but taken out of contextual meaning.

    He cannot see the word of the Apostles and the Scriptures he has posted as "proof" in the same hand as agreement.
     
  17. agedman

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    Again, we agree!

    But according to FAL, it is not just the desire to keep, but the keeping that is "proof" of salvation.

    He then posts verses that would seem on the surface to support his thinking, but in the balance of Scriptures show the truth.

    I think that is what another thread would be called proof texting.
     
  18. preacher4truth

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    I am glad we agree on these issues and especially of the rich young ruler, as I see many are deceived with this passage, while Christ made a great point concerning his failure, and had great compassion on him.

    As far as speaking for freeatlast on the rest of your points, I cannot do that, as he is the one who should clarify these things.

    - Peace
     
  19. DaChaser1

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    My point would still stand regarding to salvation...

    Fal would have us being under the burdern of keeping the law well enough to prove that we are saved...

    salvation immediate one time act of God towards us, and he knows whom he has redeemed, and in jesus ALL that get saved will stay saved!

    We DO need to be those whose lives give witness to others of the garce of God in operation, but TAHT is produced by the HS in and throguh us living out the new life in Christ, NOT by us trying hard to keep all 10 Commandments!

    I know that fal is concerned with one just professing jesus, but not living lives reflecting that he is in us, but keeping the law for that purpose NOT way to go!
     
  20. DaChaser1

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    jesus is the end of the law to all who belive on him....

    Does that mean we come live as we desire?
    No, rather the Bible states that we have been freed from being in bondage to the law and our flesh, to being alive in Christ, and now empowered by the HS to be able to live as we shoudld, as its HIM working in us!

    jesus kept ALL the law perfectly, God took his perfect obedience and credits to us what he did for us....

    That is why the law 'ended" for us, as we now live by Christ in us, by the HS, not by trying to obey God to keep all the law, as Chrsit already did THAT aprt for us!
     

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