The KJV Issue – Faith Vs. Facts

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by AVBunyan, Aug 21, 2004.

  1. AVBunyan

    AVBunyan
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    As you have noticed there are always discussion surrounding the KJV vs. the newer versions. I’ve been involved with these chats and I’ve noticed something. What I’ve noticed is both sides (KJV only vs. other stands) seek to defend their stance using facts. This seems reasonable enough when you first look at it. But when you dig into this something doesn’t make sense.

    When you who deals with souls on a regular basis present the gospel (I Cor. 15:1-5) to a lost soul you tell him that Christ died for his sins, was buried, and rose again the third day (at least I hope you do). Now, how do you prove the gospel to a lost man? First you seek to show him from the “scriptures” for the last part of the gospel says, “according to the scriptures”. You expect the soul to believe the message of the gospel by faith. You know you are not to try to “convince” the man by “facts “ for that is not how the Holy Spirit says this is to be done – a sinner is to receive Christ by faith.

    How are you going to “prove” the gospel anyway? Are you going to resort to historical witnesses and writings? We can and I do but that is not the key. Are you going to use archeological items or “relics”? No, you know God did not leave us Noah’s ark, Christ’s cross preserved, etc. Why, because God expects us to take Him at his word by faith. You take a soul to the scriptures and expect him to believe “facts” of the message by faith.

    One of the ways you say you can tell a man trusted Christ was by the affect the conversion had on him or by the fruits he displayed thus giving you some “evidence” that the gospel and his conversion was real.

    Now…you know where I’m heading…why do some of you get so wound up when some of us say by faith we believe the King James is the word of God without error? Isn’t that how I’m supposed to believe it? Do you try to convince a man the truths of the gospel by presenting historical evidences? If you try to convince a man of this then you are not relying upon the Holy Spirit to do the work – you are relying upon your “persuasive sales abilities” – I’m been guilty of this so I know what I am talking about here.

    The same goes for trying to persuade someone the KJV is the word of God. Someone will always come up with all the reasons why it is not (revisions, King James I was a sodomite, they didn’t have access to the latest manuscripts, errors, blah, blah, and more blahs, etc.). The same can be said about Calvary (a man can’t come back from the grave, nails would have ripped his hands, no eye witness accounts other than the Bible, etc.). You are always going to hear someone try to explain away Calvary by using a scholastic and scientific approach and you hammer these people for doing so. So…why do we get hammered for believing something that seems to run contrary to “scientific” research and reason?

    The “reasons” and “evidences” all look good and seem to make sense but it is still not living by faith but by external evidences. Yes, I know God gave us a brain and reasoning faculties but when it comes to spiritual things we must be careful not to cross the line and walk by sight and not by faith. Our reasoning powers come to naught when it comes to the power of God.

    Fellas, you have come up with many reasons why the King James Bible shouldn’t be the only one without error and all that but when it comes right down to it I still take my stand on faith – why knock it?

    I don’t fall apart or go to war with you folks who do not believe the King James Bible is without error. I don’t hammer the average saint on the street when he says he reads another version. I’ve got more grace than that. If a person comes to my church with another version we don’t jump on him – we say nothing. If he asks then we will graciously answer him.

    I’ve read most of the works against the KJV. You believe your source and I believe mine. Comparing the gospel with the KJV I look for the same fruits. All I can go by is that the scriptures work in the lives of those that believe it. Don’t you say the same for the gospel? All you can go by in a man, other than his “profession” is II Cor. 5:17 (creature not “creation” by the way).

    This “mass” critique of the Bible God used is a modern movement. I think what may be going on are two things:

    1. People are educated out of believing it – i.e. someone comes along and shows them things that raise doubts (Gen. 3:1).
    2. People today say the other versions are as good because the emphasis is not on the “words” but the “message”. The modern thinking is, “As long as the message is there it is ok.”

    Ok, let’s summarize – I take a King James Bible and I look at how it describes itself. I look at the internal evidence of what the book says about itself and I, by faith, believe it. I take a King James Bible and look at the words, “words, word, truth, scriptures, scripture, read, holy, pure, inspiration, power”, etc. and I believe what it says about itself. Why doubt it? I, by faith, believe the King James Bible is without error.

    Someone said that Christ is the only thing perfect here – I believe His word is also perfect and I have it in my hands. You don’t believe that then fine – this is still a free country, kind of. You will stand before God and give account and I will do the same. The only difference is I will be standing with the book God used for the last 380 years with miraculous results and will feel confident I will have to answer for nothing in this area.

    God bless
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    Opinions are like backsides. Everyone has one but most keep them discreetly covered.

    Spend a couple days AV (which stands for Anglican Version, btw) and read some threads. Then feel free to jump in when you have something to add.
     
  3. StefanM

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    I can say one thing for certain. If the KJVO camp will quit making this an issue (i.e. stop harassing everyone else for using non-KJV Bibles), then we non-KJVO people will leave you alone. You are free to believe whatever you want, but if you start preaching something that has absolutely no support (I'm not talking about you here) with a belligerent, holier-than-thou attitude (e.g. Ruckman), then we non-KJVOs are not going to stand idly by while the word of God is defamed, debased, and dragged through the mud.
     
  4. HankD

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    Neither do we, welcome aboard.

    HankD
     
  5. Ransom

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    The fact is, most of us would be just fine proclaiming the Gospel, except then sooner or later some nitwits like these guys will come along and try and force the issue.
     
  6. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    AV Bunyan,

    No one would knock you for your belief. The fact that the KJB was THE English bible for several hundred years does lend credence to the proposition that it IS God's word ('cause if it isn't then God didn't really preserve His word).

    The problem is that the specific arguments fail to prove EXCLUSIVITY. If the KJB could be PROVEN to stem from the best manuscripts (as if it were clear which are best), if the KJB could be proven to have not been modified or revised at all, if it could be proven that Alexandrian manuscripts were perverted...but these suggestions have all fallen short of definite proof.

    So you would get "knocked" for insistence that only the KJV is a valid bible.

    I much prefer the KJV over any other translation - but that's my preference. There's no evidencial or scriptural background to justify me (or you) in saying that any one version is the only bible, or that the Spirit will show us that one version alone is God's word.

    KJV-preferred is a fine stance; KJV only is not!
     
  7. rsr

    rsr
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    Ransom: These guys at least need to learn the idiom. You don't make lemon juice from lemons; you make lemonade.

    Just as you make chicken salad from ...
     
  8. Cix

    Cix
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    What if I said I believe by faith that the Holman Christian Standard Bible written in 2004 is the word of God without error. Would you disagree? Would you say, why did God wait so long to put out his word to the people? If I said it is 100% error free, what would you do to verify this or would you just believe it.
     
  9. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Interesting name "AVBunyan." Must be someone's initials since John used the Geneva Bible. It can't have anything to do with him.
     
  10. Scott J

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    You're not. Although if someone is skeptic you can go along way proving the validity of the Bible's message through extra-biblical history.

    The Holy Spirit uses what the Bible says either directly or through the witness of a Christian to convict and save. The problem KJVO's have is that the Bible (KJV) nowhere says anything like what KJVO's believe. You refer to internal proofs and the like but having read and studied the KJV for more than 30 years I can positively affirm that the KJV nowhere identifies itself as the only valid version of God's Word in English.
    Absolutely... and he can be shown those "facts" from a number of faithful versions of the Bible.

    BTW, this was equally true before the KJV.

    If you find anyone here that declares that the KJV is not the Word of God then you will have a great company from the non-KJVO side joining you in denouncing that false teacher. Now with that in mind, I would invite you to help us denounce those who would say that other faithful versions such as the NKJV and NASB are not the Word of God.
    We aren't knocking it unless you call being honest about the minor flaws in its text and translation due to the involvement of fallible humans "knocking it". And there are a few flaws... but none effect doctrine and none prevent it from being accurately called the Word of God.

    Then you should be on our side since MV's most certainly have borne great "fruit" in both souls and sanctified lives.
    Only because the false belief of KJVOnlyism is a modern movement. It is not a historical nor fundamental Christian belief. At best, it is no more than 100 years old... therefore the response to that error can not help but be "modern".
    Actually the only people in the habit of condemning versions of God's Word are KJVO's. All of the non-KJVO's I know affirm that the KJV is indeed God's Word... in fact, many of us use the KJV either primarily or exclusively.
    The "message" is all that matters! If it weren't then the only way we could have God's Word would be to learn the original languages and then somehow identify that one perfect manuscript of each book of the Bible.

    No translation including the KJV is valid unless the message is preeminent.
     
  11. Craigbythesea

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    Some of us say by faith we believe that the earth is flat instead of round. Isn’t that how I’m supposed to believe it? Do you try to convince a man the truths of the gospel by presenting historical evidences? If you try to convince a man of this then you are not relying upon the Holy Spirit to do the work – you are relying upon your “persuasive sales abilities.”

    Presumption is not faith! Arguing for a case that has been proven to be wrong and blaming the Holy Spirit for ones &lt;edited by moderator&gt;!!!

    [ August 22, 2004, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]
     
  12. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    If the Bible said that the KJV was the only version in English I would surely accept that by faith.
     
  13. Craigbythesea

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    But it DOES NOT say that! Therefore, there is nothing to accept by faith—and therefore, it is not a matter of faith, but a matter of presumption.
     
  14. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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  15. av1611jim

    av1611jim
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    Ok fellas in the mv camp. Tell me in plain ameri-speak, WHAT is the word of God? If it is this book AND that book AND that book AND that book AND that book...ad infinitum, you leave me with utter confusion because they are NOT the same.
    My faith is in ONE book. I will give you the latitude and grace to believe anything you wish to believe. That is the essence of liberty of conscience. At least allow us the same.
    BUT NOOOOOOOOOO! Lame appeals like ( "The bible doesn't say that the kjv...blah blah blah." )do not move me one iota. Scriptures do not mention any of the mv's either. So what? Big deal.
    AVBunyan is right. We DO trust the KJB by faith. No other way YOU can trust your mv's but by faith.
    Fact is...YOU can't prove any of them are perfect either. And IF you say that none of them are perfect then by default you just relegated the Scriptures to limbo because they claim for themselves perfection. And as for me and my house, we will NOT go down THAT road.
    Jim
     
  16. av1611jim

    av1611jim
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    Oh..one more thing Ransom. That link shows folks doing what they did 20 YEARS ago. Ive read that piece a half dozen times. NOTHING in it is new. Would you like to see some MV clowns doing things just as stupid if not more so to reproach the gospel? Have you SEEN the pictures of so-called "christians" AT A ccm CONCERT in their halter tops, tattos, and piercings? I can with all confidence assure you they are not KJB people.
    Whether forcing the issue or reproaching the precious name of Jesus, the actions of "bad guys" on either side of the issue does not a convincing argument make one way or the other. It simply shows that SOME folks who name the name of Jesus haven't got a clue what it means to die to self. It has NO BEARING on your position in THIS debate.
    Jim
     
  17. AVL1984

    AVL1984
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    I would have to agree here. The KJVO's are the one's making the biggest issue of the MV's, libeling/slandering them by saying they are "perversions". This is far from fact. ALL DOCTRINES AND FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH ARE FOUND INTACT IN THE MV'S! Some may say they are weakened, leaving out verses, etc., but they don't seem to address the issues of underlying texts, and the fact that they are VERSIONS, not literally word for word translations. I use the KJV as a matter of preference, but I do not and will not advocate the attacks on the MV's as perversions as so many of the brethren have done. I, too, though not an apologist for the MV's, will fight against this misrepresentation, as it does not honor Christ, demeans others, causes many to question their salvation/calling, and ruins lives.

    AVL1984
     
  18. HankD

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    Neither are the 1611 King James and the 1769 King James, there are hundreds of differences. There were two First Editions of the 1611 King James Bible, the Cambridge and the Oxford, they had differences in the text which persist to this day.

    "things which are different are not the same".

    HankD
     
  19. robycop3

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    There's a difference in FAITH BASED UPON THE KNOWN vs BLIND FAITH, believing something unseen just because a fellow human declared it. God tells us that proof of His existence and power is the CREATION. thus, when we break matter down,the most basic particle of matter now known is the quark...which demands a CREATOR, as, try as it may, science CANNOT produce something from nothing. there's no physical force or item which can make matter appear in a vacuum. And there's also the unmistakable proof of FULFILLED PROPHECY. A little one-phrase prophect in Daniel..."travel and knowledge shall be greatly increased"...has perhaps the greatest impact upon how we've lived since birth. And, there's the sudden growth of Judah(Israel) from a motley collection of kibbutzim to a military superpower, with the wealth of the nation growing daily. No, God does NOT want us to believe by BLIND faith.

    But that's exactly what the KJVO myth and its advocates asks of us...to believe the KJV is the ONLY valid English Bible translation out there. This doctrine is patently false; it was started by a known cult official, it has absolutely NO justification by Scripture, even from the AV 1611 itself, and every point its advocates has ever presented has been almost immediately shot down by undeniable empirical evidence.

    I have no prob with anyone wishing to use the KJV or any other valid version exclusively, but when they tell ME my choice of using several versions is wrong, then it's war. I flat-out REFUSE to compromise with a KNOWN FALSE DOCTRINE or its advocates.
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    av1611jim: "Ok fellas in the mv camp. Tell me in plain ameri-speak, WHAT is the word of God? If it is this book AND that book AND that book AND that book AND that book...ad infinitum, you leave me with utter confusion because they are NOT the same."

    AVBunyan: " ... why do some of you get so wound up when some of us say by faith we believe the King James is the word of God without error? Isn’t that how I’m supposed to believe it?"

    Why do some of you get so wound up when some of us
    say be faith we believe ALL RELIABLE TRANLSATIONS are
    (collectively and individually) the written word of God
    without error. Recall that only the axiom varies, that
    which we take by faith.

    I am perfectly willing to argue until Jesus comes which
    is the beter axiom.

    [​IMG]
     

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