The Lord's Discourse

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Truth Files, Sep 8, 2010.

  1. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    The Lord’s discourse regarding the time of the end presented in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is a total focus upon a returned remnant of Israel to the land at the time of the end

    All of His projection is about a future generation of Israel during the coming 70th week decreed for the nation …. not about 70 A.D. which was not the time of the end; and certainly not about today’s church composed of both Israelites and mostly Gentiles

    He speaks to His followers as if they would experience the time, but they were all Israelites and He speaks about their nation without revealing any dating of the event ; this is totally consistent with all scripture related to the coming 70th week decreed for Israel

    No one has or can know the beginning of the period

    They asked when He would restore the kingdom to Israel and He told them that it was not for them to know or anyone else for that matter [Acts1:6-7]

    He has purposely delayed His intervention for adding the fullness of the gentiles to the church [Romans 11:25-26]; then all of a believing remnant [the “many”] of Israel will be saved during the coming 70th week [Daniel 9:24; Zechariah 13:8-9]]

    There is one verse in Luke that may refer to their fate in the first century, but no others

    He says “but before all of these things” [meaning the things of the 70th week decreed] and then tells them of what to expect for themselves [Luke 21:12]

    He speaks as a prophet in His discourse and projects the same views of His Bible prophets who saw the coming 70th week decreed for Israel [Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Zechariah 14; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

    The scope of the prophetic visions does not include any events on the earth between the end of the 69th week [about 33 A.D.] and the beginning of the 70th week decreed for Israel which is still pending

    The current setting in the Middle East will lead to His projected time of the end
     
    #1 Truth Files, Sep 8, 2010
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  2. RAdam

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    Daniel 9 has been totally fulfilled. Part of the Lord's Olivet Discourse has been fulfilled, part has not.

    Read Luke 21:20-24. He tells them when they see this particular sign (Jerusalem compassed with armies) to leave the city and the country and never come back. He then tells them what would happen at that time, namely that those that did not flee would fall by the edge of the sword and be led away captive into all nations. Then He states that Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    Cestius brought his army to Jerusalem, and then just inexplicably left. At that point the Christians in the city and country recalled the words of Jesus and fled. Later, Titus laid seige to the city and estimates of 1.1 million Jews were killed. The remnant that survived were literally carried away captive into all nations. Jerusalem has been since trodden down of the Gentiles.

    Later in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus says that of the day and hour of His coming no man would know. Obviously, this a separate event. He likens His coming to a thief in the night. It would be unexpected. Jesus is there prophesying of something that hasn't happened yet - His second coming and the end of the world.
     
  3. Truth Files

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    Sorry, can't agree with you

    I see that you may hold a partial preterist view

    Splitting the time frame of the coming 70th week decreed for national is not scriptural

    The entire 7 years [one week of years] will take place in the same time frame

    There are two princes in Daniel 9:26-27

    The Lord .[the Messiah Prince] .... and the other prince [satan's beast] who shall come

    It is the Lord who will confirm the covenant by executing the future 70th week decreed .... the first "He"

    And it is the other prince, the second "he" who will come against Israel at the middle of the time frame

    This prince is the little horn [incarnated by satan's beast] and king of the northern Middle East presented in Daniel's visions .... the same as satan's first beast of Revelation .... 10 other human kings will be confederated with this king [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 17:8]

    This event has never taken place in the past and did not in 70 A.D.; not a picture of 70 A.D.

    11 Roman kings did not invade Israel in 70 A.D.

    These kings will be the leaders of the current Islamic states of the Middle East .... there are 10 and the little horn will rise among them [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-23; 8:23-25; 11:36-45; 12:7]]
     
    #3 Truth Files, Sep 8, 2010
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  4. RAdam

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    The full 7 years did take place.

    It's funny that you say you can't split the 7 years, and then you turn around and split up the 70 weeks. You have absolutely no right from scripture to split up the 70 weeks by placing at least 1900 years between weeks. In fact, by doing so you completely destroy the time aspect of that prophecy.
     
  5. Truth Files

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    And I would have to say that you destroy the contiguous 70th week that is still future

    Your view and mine are miles apart so we really have no common ground from which to discuss

    I don't like posters who attempt to discredit others so let's drop the dialogue
     
  6. RAdam

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    How have I destroyed the 70th week? I say it has already been fulfilled.
     
  7. Truth Files

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    "I say it has already been fulfilled"

    And I say no, based upon all of the prophetic visions of the Bible prophets taken together including the Lord's discourse and the book of Revelation

    We will just have to disagree on this issue
     
  8. RAdam

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    Why do you separate week number 70 from the previous 69 by thousands of years? Why does Jesus give a clear sign of one event but refuses to for the other event if they are one and the same? Why do you violate language by refusing to assign the singular personal pronoun "he" in Daniel 9:27 to the only singular personal noun in that entire context, "Messiah?"
     
  9. Truth Files

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    "Why do you separate week number 70 from the previous 69 by thousands of years?"

    I don't .... the scriptures do .... this breach in the narrative exists in all of the prophetic visions regarding the time of the end and can be directly identified .... all give the same rendering

    Neither do I support the preteristic view and I don't think that the Bible does either

    There are just two many flaws and also the practice of dumping volumes of scripture and relegating them as being figurative when they do not fit the preterist's position

    If fact I consider the theology a totally different gospel and not related to the composite and completed message that Jesus Christ has given in the scriptures of His Word

    So because of this there is really no common ground for you and I to discuss .... our views are simply just to divergent for carrying on an intelligent conversation

    Preterism is much like the speak of the adherents of Islam, but presented in a different package in a number of ways
     
    #9 Truth Files, Sep 9, 2010
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  10. RAdam

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    You see, this is what truly aggravates me. People believe there are only two views of prophecy in scripture - preterism and futurism. If one says that Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks is fulfilled, they want to throw you into the preterist camp. If you argue that not all of the Olivet Discourse is fulfilled, they want to throw you into the futurist camp. Stop!

    There is absolutely nothing in Daniel 9 or anywhere else in scripture that says that particular prophecy has anything to do with the end times. Everything in that prophecy points to it having only to do with the second period of Jewish nationalism, that is from the decree of Cyrus to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. That prophecy is a times prophecy and is the only link between the OT chronology and the ministry of Jesus Christ. It should not be broken up. The practice of separating the 70th week both goes against the language of the text and destroys the timing of the prophecy.

    Now, that being said, there are many things in the bible not yet fulfilled. The second coming of Christ has not happened yet. Part of the Olivet Discourse has not happened yet. I'm not a preterist, I'm simply a person who tries to figure out what the bible is saying.

    I've yet to see someone handle this problem. In Daniel 9:27 there is a singular personal pronoun, that being he. In the context there is only one singular personal noun that could be matched up with he, that being Messiah. The he of Daniel 9:27 must be Messiah according to language rules. You ask, what about "the prince that shall come?" Well, the text speaks of "the people of the prince that shall come." In that phrase "prince" is a modifier for "people," which is a plural noun. Prince tells us who these people were, they were the people of the prince that shall come. The pronoun cannot be replacing this modifier.
     
  11. Truth Files

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    "You see, this is what truly aggravates me. People believe there are only two views of prophecy in scripture - preterism and futurism."

    I contrasted what you and I think only

    There are a number of other views of end time exegesis
     
  12. canadyjd

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    I have come to the same conclusion from a plain reading of the text.

    The one thing I find certain, imho, is that any theology that has a separate future for a National Israel and the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ is contrary to Paul's argument in Eph. that, by His work on the cross, Jesus has made peace between the two groups (Jews and Gentiles) and has formed them into one new man that is to be presented to Almighty God by Holy Spirit.

    Jesus will not undo His work on the cross. It is finished!

    peace to you:praying:
     
  13. Logos1

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    Preterism is the Future of Eschatology

    There is no biblical mention, reason, nor even suggestion that the 70 weeks can be split—this is the simplest of forced, man-made, conventions to create a manufactured outcome.

    Yet this is OK (indeed necessary) for the dispensationalist’s view which starting with Darby’s imagination and Margaret McDonald’s vision has been built on creativity, slight of hand reading, and thinking that the Jewish oriented mindset that wrote of the last days of the Old Covenant was really about the last days of Christianity.

    I’m just grateful I got to live during the few moments of history when dispensationalism was at its peak and got to be so entertained by it.

    As more people get the low-down on how dispensationalism was created they are leaving it in ever larger numbers—just like I did.

    Every year that passes without Christ returning makes dispensationalism look more desperate and preterism more credible. It will be a long slow journey, but in an ironic twist on words—preterism is the future of eschatology (I think I’ll put that on a t-shirt). Time is on our side.

    “Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

    Why thank you Mel!
     
  14. Truth Files

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    "Jesus has made peace between the two groups (Jews and Gentiles)"

    This is true in matters regarding salvation .... there is no national distinction for members of the church

    But, the Lord is keeping national Israel separate from the other nations of the gentiles for His purposes [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31; Ezekiel 20; 36; 37; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Romans 11:25-26]

    There are volumes of scripture that support this truth

    .....from the nation's beginning, at present, and in the future
     
    #14 Truth Files, Sep 10, 2010
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  15. Truth Files

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    "Time is on our side"

    Really?

    The Lord could intervene before this day is over

    Make certain that you are ready [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:16]

    .... or you could just sit on the fence and bide your time

    Don't let the devil deceive you and snooker you into the coming tribulation period [Revelation 12:12]
     
  16. RAdam

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    Where does Daniel 9 speak of a separation of Israel for future purposes.

    Daniel 9 has got to be one of the most misused prophetic passages in all the bible. I still have yet to get one person who believes in a suspended 70th week to address the language problems they have in failing to assign the singular personal pronoun he in Verse 27 to the singular personal noun Messiah.
     
  17. lastday

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    Lastday

    RAdam,
    You write:
    Jesus takes Dan.9:27 out of the historical past by relating its fulfillment to
    the great tribulation and His coming for the Jews after the 1260-day
    "great tribulation" which He predicted will be "greater than any tribulation in history or the future".

    The days which Jesus says will be "shortened" are the 1260 Endtime days
    during which the Two Prophets will "demonstrate God's Kingdom Power"
    while the total number of Martyrs are killed "who must be killed". The DAY
    of Wrath is a single Day during which the Messiah rescues the Jewish Remnant and destroys the armies at Armageddon and on that same
    Day gathers from earth every believer to meet Him in the air as He comes.
    Mel
     
  18. RAdam

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    And, as I've said before, the parallel passage to Matthew 24:15 is Luke 21:20. The latter shows that Jesus was speaking of AD 70 and not some future event at that point in the Olivet Discourse.
     
  19. Truth Files

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    "Daniel 9 has got to be one of the most misused prophetic passages in all the bible. I still have yet to get one person who believes in a suspended 70th week to address the language problems they have in failing to assign the singular personal pronoun he in Verse 27 to the singular personal noun Messiah"

    I will show you one more time and then you are on your own

    There is no need to craft up a convoluted grammatical approach for the purpose of supporting preterism

    Daniel
    9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Israel] and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: [the ending of the 69th]

    and the people of the prince that shall come [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 11:36-45; 12:7; Micah 5:5-6] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    9:27 And he [Jesus Christ] shall confirm the covenant [execute the 6 objectives stated in 9:24] with many [the believing remnant part of Israel [Zechariah 13:8-9; Romans 11:25-26]] for one week: [the 70th]

    and in the midst of the week he [the prince that shall come] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [worship of the believing remnant at the Kotel], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate [the remnant will have to flee [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]] , even until the consummation [the end of the 70th], and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate [the other prince and his followers].
     
  20. lastday

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    Lastday

    Canadyjd:
    You Write:
    The finished work on the Cross was for the Body of Christ; Bride of the Lamb!
    God is not finished with mankind in proving all in a state of "disobedience"!!
    He will overwhelm billions of Abraham's natural descendants with MERCY!!!

    First was the testing of His Chosen People under the Law and Sacrifices!
    Second is the testing of Gentiles while Jews remain in a state of blindness!!
    Third will be the testing of ALL nations by how they treat Jesus' brethren!!!

    In the Eternal State, the Lamb's Bride includes both OT and NT Saints!
    It's the "Holy Temple in the Lord" tho the New Jerusalem is not a Temple!!
    "The Will of God will finally be done on earth as it is being done in Heaven"!!!
     

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