The Myth of Free Will

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Monergist, Oct 16, 2002.

  1. Monergist

    Monergist
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  2. tyndale1946

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    AMEN!... Excellent article!... Brother Glen [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  3. ForumChaplain

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    Does it deal with the myth of:
    Total depravity
    Limited attonement.
    Salvational election.
    Irresistible grace

    The man has an agenda, can anyone figure out what it is?????

    [ October 16, 2002, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Arminians argue free will "In the Context of" John 12:32 the supernatural "Drawing of God" - not "in the absence of it".

    All critique of the arminian view seems to "hide" from that obvious fact and context of the argument.

    It makes one wonder "why" the arguments attacking the Arminian position on free will are so frightened by that "context" that they consistently fail to address the Arminian point - repeatedly.

    "could it be" because BOTH the Calvinist and Arminian camps "agree" that the John 12:32 "Drawing" DOES resolve the "innability" problem of "total depravity"??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    God sovereignly willed the salvation of human beings on the Cross. Men and women can affect their salvation when they hear the Gospel.

    God sovereignly willed . . . . 'God so loved the world . . . '

    Man can determine his or her salvation . . . ' . . . that whosoever believeth in Him . . .'

    God's free grace . . . . . ' . . . shall not perish but have everlasting life.'
     
  6. Yelsew

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    Free will in humanity applies to every aspect of human life, or there is no such thing as free will!

    The murderer, fraud, sexually immoral, etc. are that by the exercise of their own free will. No one can make another a murderer, or a fraud, or sexually immoral if they do not want to be such.

    It should be obvious that we live our lives according to our own free will, otherwise God would not give us a choice in any part of our lives.

    God allows us to choose Him, by our own free will. He provides His Holy Spirit to guide us into the truth and to encourage us to accept that truth in belief.

    For all, Jesus Justified us by what He did for us. For Christians, we become sanctified by our belief in Jesus.

    The sexually immoral are justified by their behavior and they are sanctified by their belief that there is nothing wrong with sex in any of its forms.

    The same with the murderer, and the fraud.

    Thus is it by belief that we (humanity) are sanctified. What you are sanctified to, depends entirely on what you believe in.
     
  7. KenH

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    Free will to choose within the confines of our nature, which we know is fallen because of Adam's sin in the Garden of Eden. This is why regeneration must occur before man can exercise his free will to repent and believe and live a life of holiness.
     
  8. Eladar

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    If someone says that Free Will is a myth, then that someone says that they know exactly how God works.

    I'd steer clear of people who believe they know God's limitations.
     
  9. KenH

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    "What I say on this point is as follows: Man, before he is created
    to be man, does and endeavours nothing towards his being made a
    creature, and when he is made and created he does and endeavours
    nothing towards his continuance as a creature; both his creation
    and his continuance come to pass by the sole will of the
    omnipotent power and goodness of God. Yet he does not work
    without us; for He created and preserves us for this very
    purpose, that He might work in us and we might cooperate with
    Him, whether that occurs outside His kingdom, by His general
    omnipotence, or within His kingdom, by the special power of His
    spirit. So, too, I say that man, before he is renewed into the
    new creation of the Spirit's kingdom, does and endeavours nothing
    to prepare himself for that new creation and kingdom, and when he
    is re-created he does and endeavours nothing towards his
    perseverance in that kingdom; but the Spirit alone works both
    blessings in us, regenerating us, and preserving us when
    regenerate , without ourselves; as James says: 'Of His own will
    begat He us with the word of His power, that we should be the
    firstfruits of His creation' (Jas. 1:18) But He does not work in
    us without us, for He re-created and preserves us for this very
    purpose, that He might in us and we might co-operate with
    Him...... But what is hereby attributed to "free-will"? What ,
    indeed, is left in it but - nothing! In truth, nothing!"

    - from Martin Luther's The Bondage of the Will

    [ October 19, 2002, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Luther is one of those great Christian authors of the past - that Arminians do not always agree with.

    Here is another great Christian author of the past - commenting on the same subject above.

    [/quote]
    1Corinthians 9
    23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
    24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
    25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
    26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
    27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified
    [/quote]

    Ahh but when I note that those two positions are in contradiction, then you will respond - "yes but scripture is infallible".

    Precisely.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Helen

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    "Choose this day whom you will serve"

    "...that whomsoever believes on Him will not perish..."

    yup, free will is definitely a myth.

    Oh well, you had the freedom to post what you willed.
     
  12. Monergist

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    I just noticed the link to the article is not working. Evidently the site is down, but will be back in a couple days.

    Check back. [​IMG] It's worth reading.

    Tim
     
  13. KenH

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    Choose which way you think you can be saved - free grace or free will. I choose free grace. [​IMG]
     
  14. Eladar

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    I don't see where free grace and free will are mutually exclusive concepts.

    Here is one-

    Choose to devour another Christian over a debatable matter and possibly cause another to stumble or choose love and not force your views on the matter on another.

    Your choice reveals your heart, choose wisely. [​IMG]
     
  15. KenH

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    At the risk of further ridicule by the anti-Calvinists, here is more.

    "And now I do not know what to say further. My text is such a precious one that I cannot enter into the fullness of its freeness and sweetness. Remember, my dear friends, if you are willing to be saved, God requires nothing of you except that you will yield yourselves up to Christ. If you are willing to be saved none can prevent; there is no obstacle. You are not going like the daughters of Hobab to a well from which you will be driven by the coarseness and rudeness of shepherds. You are come where Jesus stands—stands with open arms, stands with open mouth, crying to you this day, "If any man thirst let him come unto me and drink, and whosoever will let him take the water of life freely."
    And now will you refuse the invitation? See that you refuse not him that speaketh! Will you go this day and abuse the free mercy of God? Shall this very mercy lead you into more sin? Will you be wicked enough to say, that because grace is free, therefore you will continue in sin year after year?
    Oh do not so; grieve not the Spirit of God; to-day is the accepted time; to-day is the day of salvation. If ye turn not he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready. You have been warned, your conscience has often pricked you, now this day you are sweetly invited. But the time of warnings and invitations will not last for ever: they will soon be over, and when your funeral knell is tolling, you shall be in that lake of fire, that land of misery and pain, where not a drop of water shall ever cool your burning tongue. As you would escape from the flames of hell, as you would be delivered from the eternal torments which God will certainly hurl upon you like hailstones, I beseech thee now consider thy ways, and if now thou art willing thou art invited and none can keep thee back from his mercy. "Whosoever will let him take the water of life freely." Shall I preach in vain? Will you all go away and not take the water of life? Come, soul—is there not one at least that God shall give me this day for my hire—not one? May I not take one of you by the hand, some poor sinning erring brother? Come, brother let us go together and drink. O may the Holy Ghost incline you. Take it my brother. See on that bloody tree Jesus hangs; behold he pays his life a ransom for your sins and mine. Believe on him, trust him, commit your soul to him and be saved. Will you not say in your soul

    "Just as I am without one plea
    But that thy blood was shed for me
    And that thou bid'st me come to thee,
    O lamb of God I come, I come?"

    And as my Master is true and faithful, he cannot cast away one soul that cometh, for "him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out." O Spirit, now draw reluctant hearts, and now give timid souls courage to believe for Jesus' sake. Amen."


    - from Charles Spurgeon's sermon entitled "Come and Welcome"
     
  16. Helen

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    No ridicule, Ken, but why would Spurgeon be pleading with the people to respond if they had no freedom to do so?
     
  17. KenH

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    An honest question, Helen, deserves an honest answer. [​IMG]

    Spurgeon believed that God is working through the preaching and teaching of the gospel to draw a people to Himself. Spurgeon did not know who these people were, so he spread the gospel far and wide as a sower of the seed of the gospel. As the apostle Paul said, "Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men"(2 Corinthians 5:11). Perhaps this is best summed up by a quote from Spurgeon on this subject -

    "I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will."

    I hope this helped to answer your question.
     
  18. Helen

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    Not to be disrespectful of Spurgeon, for he was a fine man, but did he then think God needed help? If the Reformed position is actually correct, then God will call them no matter what, right?

    Would not Spurgeon's time have better been spent building up the body of Christ instead of thinking he could help God add to it?
     
  19. KenH

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    No. The Reformed position is that God uses means, such as preaching, teaching, prayer, the ordinances or sacraments - baptism and the Lord's Supper, etc. Now, there may be some non-Reformed doctrines of grace believers who may give you a slightly different answer. If so, they can handle that.
     
  20. Helen

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    This raises a couple of questions, but let me do them one at a time.

    The Reformed position states that God's elect were chosen before time began -- before the creation of the world -- to be His.

    Then, if a teacher did not teach, or a preacher did not preach and did something else instead, would those elect not have been reached?

    Does God actually rely on those means? Humans fail. What happens to the elect then?
     

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