The Natue of Faith in Romans 3:24-5:2

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Aug 1, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Rom. 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.


    The divide in Christianity is over the meaning of "faith" in Romans 3:24-5:2. Those who reject the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works define "faith" or "beleiving" in Romans 3:24-5:2 as "faithfulness." They define imputation as God reckoning their own "faithfulness" as righteousness and thus God justifies "the godly."

    However, Romans 4:16-23 provides the contextual definition of faith/believing in regard to justification. In short, faith is not defined by what we are able to do (faithfulness, obedience to the apostolic faith and practice) but rather as trust in God for what we cannot do but what God must do for us.

    Rom. 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

    Romans 4:16 introduces "faith" as the only hope for obtaining "the promise" of ruling over this world as heirs. He denies that personal obedience to the law can obtain this promise (vv. 13-15). Paul says "it" (the promise) is "of faith that it might be by grace. Obtaining this promise requires that it be by grace instead of by works so that all the seed will obtain it - v. 16b.

    Paul now interjects an illustration from the life of Abraham to back up his assertion that the promise of being "heir" of the world must be "of faith....by grace" - Rom. 4:17-22. The illustration is the promise of an "heir" from Abraham's own loins.

    Only God can raise the dead and call things which be not as though they were (v. 17) and that is precisely what it took for Abraham to obtain the promise of an "heir" and that is precisely what it takes for anyone to be justified before God because they were "dead....deadness" in regard to obtaining this promise.

    1. God waited until Abraham and Sarah's abilities to participate, assist and contribute to obtaining this promise was "dead" and "deadness." - v. 19

    2. God waited until Abraham and Sarah only could "hope" in the face of all physical evidence against hope that such a promise could be obtained - v. 18

    3. The only thing Abraham possessed was a strong faith - v. 20

    4. The nature of this "faith" was the strong persuasion that God could do what they COULD NOT DO or help God do - v. 21

    Paul wants the reader to know that this illustration is not just the definition of faith for that particular issue but it is this very same nature of faith that obtained imputation of righteousness by Abraham in verse 3 (v. 22).

    It is this very same nature of faith that is recorded for our sakes as well - v. 23

    It is this very same nature of faith that obtains the promise of justification in Christ - vv. 24-25

    It is this very same nature of faith that obtains the peace of God - 5:1

    It is this very same nature of faith that obtains all the promises of God - 5:2


    Therefore, justification "by faith" is not justifcation by WHAT WE CAN DO or ASSIST GOD in doing for or in or through us (our faithfulness) but it is utter dependence upon and utter persuasion/trust in God to obtain RIGHTEOUSENSS which we are NOT ABLE to provide for ourselves but is found only in Christ and obtained only by faith in the promise that God will IMPUTE/RECKON/COUNT it to us by simply believing in His promise in the gospel.
     
  2. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    Thats works, for believing is something man does !
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Oh pleeeeease, didn't you even read the post before making this absurd comment?????

    Read the post! The contextual definition of "faith" excludes works. Their bodies were "dead....deadness" in regard to obtaining the promise of a child! Faith is what obtained the promise because faith is REPUDIATING WORKS and trusting completely in God! Read the post for heaven's sake before posting your nonsense!
     
  4. Yeshua1

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    no, for faith itself is NOT part of the basis of the atonement, is not part or parcel of it, just the means to receive/access the grace of god!
     
  5. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    Yep, and after all that in the finale analysis, you teach salvation by works, what a man does !
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    You teach a false gospel, in that a sinner does NOT have to palce faith in jesus in order to be saved!
     
  7. savedbymercy

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    Thats Works, Salvation by the act of a man !
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    It is the Gospel of Yeshua, according to paul!
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    You see, once man believes that he must do something in order to get saved and he winds up believing that he did do something that caused God to save him, that is salvation by works, a False Gospel. Eph 2:8-9

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    You cannot understand what you quote! What is "not of works"? Answer - "saved through faith" is not of works but is "by grace"

    "It is of faith that it might be BY GRACE" - Rom. 4:16

    "4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 To him that worketh not BUT believeth" - Rom. 4:5

    All three verses deny that "faith" is "of works" but is "by grace." Do you possess the spiritual capability to understand what these verses are clearly stating???? I doubt it.
     
    #10 The Biblicist, Aug 2, 2012
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  11. The Biblicist

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    The whole point of Romans 4:16-21 is to prove that justification by faith is not what we can do to assist, participate, contribute to help God (works) but is total and utter trust in what God must do for us. Nothing can be clearer that faith is not "of works" as Abraham's abilities are described as "dead" and only God can raise the dead (v. 17).
     
  12. savedbymercy

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    No, you cannot understand it !

    No Problem there !

    "
    No Problem there ! However it is only the Born Again person who can believe ! So that Person is already a New Creature when they believe ! That believing is a work of the New Mind and New Heart !

    Not one of those verses states that believing is not a work !
     
  13. savedbymercy

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    The bib

    It is when you make it a condition for Justification before God, something man must do !
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    Many today in organized religion teach the false doctrine that ones faith or act of believing is that which God accepts from us a condition for them to Justify us, however this is a lie, even a damnable heresy, for this makes Christ less successful in this matter than our act of faith, something we do, and is giving honor to our act over and above Jesus Christ, and so it actually dishonors Him. They do not altogether eliminate Christ, but the saving honor goes to our act of believing and not to Christ. These deceivers will say that we are Justified by Faith, and that is True, and it is also True that Christ is called Faith Gal 3:23

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    And so we are Justified by Christ as Promised Isa 53:11

    He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    And He is the object of our Faith, His Blood Rom 5:9

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    Its the Blood of Christ or the Grace of God that actually Justifies one before God, not their act of believing; for if one is Justified before God by our act of Faith or believing, then we are saying that God Justified us because of what is in us, what was in our heart ! Rom 10:9

    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Thats Salvation by our Works, our Righteousness, which is unscriptural !

    Titus 3:5

    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
     
  15. Doubting Thomas

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    Paul is also clear that it's only a Faith that works through Love that avails for ANYTHING in Christ Jesus (GALATIANS 5:6)
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    Who do you think the author and finisher of faith is? The redeemed man or God? - Heb. 12:2/Jn. 6:29 - If God then why do you charge it to the redeemed man????

    Faith is a GIFT of God - Eph. 2:8 and this "GIFT" is "not of works" - Eph. 2:9 - so why do you contradict Paul and claim it is "of works"?????

    "saved through faith" is a CREATIVE work of God "TO good works" so why do you reverse this order and place "faith" in the category of "good works" when it is the creative work of God - Eph. 2:8-10???

    Faith in justification RECEIVES and RESTS upon God's promise and power - Rom. 4:18-21 but can contribute NOTHING to obtaining God's promise.

    The perfect tense "saved" demands that "through faith" occurred at the same point in time as a completed action and is included in "his workmanship CREATED in Christ Jesus" and so why do you make it the redeemed man's work?
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Aug 2, 2012
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  17. The Biblicist

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    That has reference to progressive sanctification not justification. Rome confuses the two just as SBM confuses the two.
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    Its Jesus Christ Heb 12:2 But you have avoided my comments from the previous post !

    None of those text you quoted stated that believing was not a work. Because it is, its an act of the Renewed Mind !

    How could Abraham had believed God if he was in the flesh only as it states here. Rom 4:2-3

    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    Now that was a Born again Abraham that believed God here ! Unless you believe he believed God while yet in a unregenerated state, dead in sin !
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    then why continue to attribute it to someone's elses work?????? I will tell you why because you do not believe it is the work of Christ. You don't believe it is the GIFT of God. You don't believe it is "NOT OF WORKS" as Paul explicitly states in Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:9.





    No it is not! The mind needs to be continually renewed but faith is the attribute of the new heart "with the heart man believeth." God gives a believing heart not a heart that needs to believe.

    Paul denies it is the consequence of the regeneration but rather it IS inseparable from being "created in Christ Jesus" - Ephesians 2:10.

    The consequence of regeneration is "good works" or progressive sanctification. However, faith is an inseparable ATTRIBUTE of the new heart which comes in a believing state.

    Your logic is no better than the Armininians. Armininians demand faith precedes regeneration whereas your logic demands it is the results of regeneration - neither is true - it is INSEPARABLE from regeneration - there is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever any more than there is such a thing as an unregenerated believer - both are equally wrong and both depend upon a CHRONOLOGICAL order.

    God's creative work is INCLUSIVE of faith as it is just as absurd to reason that faith is a product of regeneration as it is to reason that regeneration is a product of faith. The heart God gives IS a believing heart not SHALL BE as that would make the New heart no better than the old heart - both still in unbelief!
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    then
    Show us when I said that or did that ! I will be waiting !
     

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