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The Necessity of Special Creation

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by standingfirminChrist, Jan 17, 2008.

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  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I don't think anybody is disagreeing that her umbilical cord supplied nourishment to Jesus...the debate is whether her egg (her "seed") was used.
     
    #81 webdog, Jan 17, 2008
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Read the accounts Webdog.
    There is a nine month difference between "that which was conceived," and the actual birth. Answer the question: What was "that" which was conceived?
     
    #82 DHK, Jan 17, 2008
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    From the NASB...

    20But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "(A)Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been [a]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

    Footnotes:
    1. Matthew 1:20 Lit begotten
    Darby...

    20but while he pondered on these things, behold, an angel of [the] Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, fear not to take to [thee] Mary, thy wife, for that which is begotten in her is of [the] Holy Spirit.

    Young's Literal Translation...

    20And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit,
     
    #83 webdog, Jan 17, 2008
  4. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Nourishment does not a bloodline make.

    Hey I could have breastfed a lot of babies but they still wouldn't have been mine!
     
    #84 annsni, Jan 17, 2008
  5. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Because Mary had a sin nature, this is how I pictured she conceived. The same way my sister in law did.

    invitro fertilization.

    This means conception took place, yet the fertilization process took place outside of the womb.


    My sister in law was fertile due to past cancer. She is a Doctor married to another Doctor. She had invitro-fertilization. Meaning another woman provided the egg combined with with her hubby's sperm, and it was implanted into her. The boys are almost 16 years old, healthy, and very bright. She is dying though, never was a very healthy person.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_fertilization

    This pretty much makes both sides of the argument come closer together. Just a thought
     
    #85 Joe, Jan 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2008
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...neither does an egg.
     
    #86 webdog, Jan 17, 2008
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I trust the KJV translation better. However, you are avoiding plain biological facts and Biblical facts. There was a nine month difference. Two words can't mean the same thing. He wasn't born twice was he. They both can't mean the same thing. It is obvious that she conceived.

    Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
     
    #87 DHK, Jan 17, 2008
  8. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    annsni,

    Bloodline had nothing to do with it as the mother does not share blood with the fetus. So Christ was not of the bloodline of Abraham. He was born in Abraham's family after God did the impossible and Mary carried Him those months in her womb.

    He was born into the world through Mary; making Him of the lineage of David as Scripture proclaimed. But the miracle was that it was all God's doing. God prepared Him a body.

    God did not prepare an Him egg as many would believe, but a body.
     
    #88 standingfirminChrist, Jan 17, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2008
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And just where did this body come from?
    If it didn't come from Mary, then Christ didn't have a human nature, and that would be heresy.
     
    #89 DHK, Jan 17, 2008
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    This is the strawman you keep erecting. The text says nothing about being born twice. It states literally that which is begotten from Mary is of the Holy Spirit. That's it. I believe just that, and don't have to hold onto our limited view of what "conceive" means to a sovereign God.
     
    #90 webdog, Jan 17, 2008
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In other words you conveniently avoid the meanings of words. Christ wasn't conceived as the Bible says; he was begotten or born as you say, and then he was born a second time nine months later. That is the only conclusion one can come to when you redefine the word "conceive."
    So instead of redefining the word, just come out and answer the question (that you keep avoiding)

    What was conceived nine months before Christ was born?
     
    #91 DHK, Jan 17, 2008
  12. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Where did the body come from? God prepared it. Ask Him.

    Scripture nowhere says Mary's egg was used in this miracle. But it does tell us God prepared Him a body. It does tell us that He gave His Son, not His seed. It does tell us that 'her seed' was offspring. Offspring is only offspring after the delivery, not prior to.

    'her seed' is offspring according to the Word of God. I choose to believe the Word of God.
     
    #92 standingfirminChrist, Jan 17, 2008
  13. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Apparently you are conveniently avoiding the meaning of 'her seed'.
     
    #93 standingfirminChrist, Jan 17, 2008
  14. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Websters Medical Dictionary

    Definition of Conception

    Conception: 1. The union of the sperm and the ovum. Synonymous with fertilization.
    2. The onset of pregnancy, marked by implantation of the blastocyst into the endometrium.
    3. A basic understanding of a situation or a principle.
    From the Latin conceptio, conceptionis meaning conception, becoming pregnant; drawing up of legal formulae; and from the Latin conceptus meaning conceiving, pregnancy; collecting, or a collection.
     
    #94 Joe, Jan 17, 2008
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I think Joe posted a nice definition of "conceived". Notice the MANY meanings of the word (if you can for a minute)
    Conception: 1. The union of the sperm and the ovum. Synonymous with fertilization. ........................(where is the sperm?!?)
    2. The onset of pregnancy, marked by implantation of the blastocyst into the endometrium......................(where is the egg?!?!)
    3. A basic understanding of a situation or a principle.
     
    #95 webdog, Jan 17, 2008
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Bloodline does not mean that the mother shares blood with the baby. I have done horse breeding in a professional way in the past. One common way to get a good foal out of a champion mother and father without risking either one is to do invitro fertilization and implant that embryo into another mare to carry it. When that foal is born, it becomes papered - not with the name of the mare that carried it but of the biological sire and dam. It will even say that it is "Foal's Name out of Mare's Name" even though that foal did not come out of that particular mare.

    If Jesus did not have the biological connection to Mary, then she would not have been able to be called His mother according to the lineage. Now, of course they wouldn't know about it back then - hey, how many believed that Mary didn't sleep with anyone and was carrying the Messiah that was conceived through the Holy Spirit. But God knew and He made it clear how He would provide a perfect sacrifice that would pay for the sins of the world. And that would be through the line of David which was a bloodline - not just an adoptive line. No where in Scripture is an adopted son considered a son for inheritance sake - until God speaks of us as His children.
     
    #96 annsni, Jan 17, 2008
  17. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    You are trying to reason out and explain the supernatural with the examples of the natural. That is not going to work.

    The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
     
    #97 standingfirminChrist, Jan 17, 2008
  18. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    Seed of a Woman in Genesis 3:15

    If you believe that God is perfectly able to create the universe without human intervention, why would you even consider that He needed Mary's egg? The incarnation was totally of God, from beginning to end...no human intervention.
     
    #98 Linda64, Jan 17, 2008
  19. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Good Point again:thumbs:
     
    #99 Eliyahu, Jan 17, 2008
  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    You are correct as is that article. There was no human intervention involved but there WAS a human involved. Mary. But she did nothing other than be willing to trust God.

    The reason I consider that she needs Mary's egg has been stated before. It was to fulfill the prophecy that the Messiah would be of the lineage of David and would be Eve's "seed". I wasn't the one to set up the prophecies - God did and He followed through with them through Jesus.
     
    #100 annsni, Jan 17, 2008
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