The NIV , Has it Become the Bible to replace the KJV?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Kiffin, Apr 17, 2001.

  1. Kiffin

    Kiffin
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    It seems we are in the waning days of the reign of the KJV Bible. Many others have tried to topple it...The RV, ASV and many at one time annointed the RSV the new King but is was unsuccessful. The KJV stood king.

    The NIV however with it's contemporary language seems to be in the driver's seat in sales and the Baby Boom and Gen X are buying it up. Unlike the RSV, the NIV has matched the hype. The KJV while it still has a hardcore base seems destined to give up it's crown to the NIV after close to a 400 year reign.

    The NKJV is a popular Bible but does not seem likely tp carry on the KJV tradition in that the NIV still outsells it. I use the NKJV but am seriously thinking of switching to the NIV myself. My experience is that the KJV seems to shoot over many peoples heads especially children and people with a limited education. The NKJV while a masterful translation seems hindered also by it's higher class English and the NASB seems stilted and hindered by it's literal translation. Whether you like the NIV or not do you think it is the KJV successor?

    [ April 17, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
     
  2. Grace

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    I think you're right about the NIV. I prefer the NIV because it is easier to understand. I know several other people that prefer the NIV too, my grand mother included. I see more and more NIV Bibles in the hands of my friends. I like the KJV too, but things change.
     
  3. Chris Temple

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    You are probably right about the NIV; it has outsold the KJV since 1984. But I would encourage you to remain with the NKJV or the NASB. The NIV, while a good reading Bible, is not literal enough for accurate study. It leaves out key theological terminology (the flesh; propitiation) and is too interpretive in many places. (Though NIVers disdain the KJV for including 1 John 5:7 which possesses little mss evidence, the NIV at Heb 11:11 says, "By faith Abraham, even though he was past age" which has no mss evidence.)

    The good news is, Crossway is publishing the English Standard Version, a conservative update of the RSV, which will be out in the fall of 2001. This translation has the potential of becoming THE real English Standard. I have a sampler from Crossway and it is outstanding; more accurate than the NIV and more readable than the NASB. (Actually the NASB95 is very readable).

    When choosing a translation, always opt for accuracy over readability, IMO.
     
  4. DocCas

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    The NIV will never replace the KJV. If the KJV is superceded it will be by something akin to the NKJV, the 21st Century KJV, Millenium Bible, etc.

    Just because the NIV sells more NOW does not mean it has replaced the KJV. If we count all the KJVs which have been printed, the KJV is still way ahead simply because you can print more bibles in almost 400 years than you can in less than 30 years. Also, don't forget the local church printed/published KJV bibles which are not included in the data supplied by the major publishing houses. Just two local church publishers account for more KJVs than the major commerical bible publisher. [​IMG]

    If we determine truth and accuracy according to how well something sells, then pornography is the ultimate truth, for it sells better than any other printed material in the world!

    Remember, God has always worked with a REMNANT, not with the majority. Contrary to popular opinion, just because "everybody is doing it" does not make it right. [​IMG]

    [ April 18, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  5. Marathon Man

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    I would tend to agree with Chris on this issue. While the NIV certainly is a popular translation, I have a really hard time with it because it frequently appears to go beyond translation into interpretation.

    Also, when it said that the NASB is stilted, I have to wonder if the individual has used the NAS95 revision, which is, IMHO, much more readable than its predicessor.

    My personal preferences are either the NKJV or the NAS95. The one drawback I have with either of these translations is that the availablity of study materials (I.E. study Bibles, audio Bibles, etc.,) is nowhere near as prevelant with these as with either the KJV or NIV.

    Finally, I would again wholeheartedly agree with Chris's statement that accuracy must take preference over clarity.
     
  6. Chris Temple

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    Hey MM, Thanks for agreeing! [​IMG]

    Have you seen the two new NASB study Bibles: the Life Application and the NASB Study Bible? The NASB study Bible is the same as the NIV study Bible; very good.

    I actually prefer the New Geneva Study Bible (NKJV) as I'm a Reformed Baptist. :eek: Its very good. So is MacArthur's, so there are some good NKJV/NASB sources out there.
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    Chris - I just received a New Geneva Study Bible and just love it. Hate the small print (since I'm older than dirt). Will put up with the NKJV though it is not my first choice.

    I was actually hoping to find a Geneva Study Bible reprint for a reasonable cost. I love to use the pre-government English (before the KJV Anglican monarchy translation) of Tyndale, Coverdale, et al, but only have snippets.

    Going to put away my present "devotional" Bible (I use a different version and study notes each year to expand my thinking). Swindoll's NIV is very poor and not worth the $1 I paid at a used book store. Will enjoy the New Geneva much more!
     
  8. Kiffin

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    Dr. Thomas,

    I agree with you that the KJV is still king but the crown is slipping. There is no indication that the hardcore KJV people will convert to the much more accurate NKJV. It would be great if they did. The archaic words and phrases sound like Shakespeare to many younger people. This is not an attack on the KJV but the fact that all translations eventually run their course. Many KJV people have made an idol out of the classic KJV.

    The NIV sales are very consistent and most Babyboomers and younger buy it and some the NKJV. If this trend continues for another 10 to 20 years the KJV will go the way of the GREAT BIBLE and GENEVA BIBLE by the end of this century.

    Many Churches are also giving away the NIV in street and door to door ministry. IBS sells NIV New Testaments for 50 cents a piece to Churches.

    The tone of your post seems to imply the NIV is a perversion. I apologize if I misinterprete you on this.The Greek Septugant that the Apostles used however was not that great of translation but my how God used it. All translations have strengths and weaknesses. The NIV in word for word translation is not as accurate as say the NASB or NKJV (though with a good concordance and word dictionary that can be offset and provide safeguards). The NIV Study Bible is one example. Time will tell if the NIV will replace the KJV.

    I look foward to the translation Chris speaks about. There is another possibilty that there will never be a dominant translation in the KJV sense.
     
  9. Chris Temple

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    Dr. Bob:

    I agree - don't know why they used such small print. Don't like the paragraph format either. Yet the notes are excellent.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    Chris - I just received a New Geneva Study Bible and just love it. Hate the small print (since I'm older than dirt). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  10. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
    . . . much more accurate NKJV.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I disagree that the NKJV is much more accurate. Although I appreciate the NKJV on its merits, and that it has updated some of the stilted language of the KJV, it is less accurate in its ability to differentiate between the singular/plural, subjective/objective pronouns, and first, second, and third person usages. It also does a rather poor job, although technically accurate, of translating the Greek present imperfect into English. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The tone of your post seems to imply the NIV is a perversion. I apologize if I misinterprete you on this.The Greek Septugant that the Apostles used however was not that great of translation but my how God used it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do not believe the NIV is a perversion, nor have I ever said nor implied such. The NIV is a very good translation of a very poor underlying Greek text.

    As to your faith in the LXX as being used by the Apostles, may I suggest that is mere speculation, at best, and a pure fabrication at worst. The "Septuagint Papyri" is a collection of about 30 papyrus fragments bearing portions of the OT in Greek. All but ONE of these were written between 150 and 750 AD. The exception is the Ryland papyrus #458, dated to about 150 BC, which contains portions of 5 chapters of Deuteronomy in Greek. What most people call the LXX today is actually a revision of the 5th column of Origen's Hexapla, which dates to 250 AD. The revision which we use today dates to a much later period. [​IMG]
     
  11. Kiffin

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    Thanks Dr. Thomas, for the clarification and the info on the Septugant. I'll investigate that more.
     
  12. Aaron

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    I'm with Thomas Cassidy here (big surprise!! :eek: )

    Those claiming victory for the NIV are ignoring a host of variables.

    Like Cassidy said, the KJV is the best selling of all time, and, if we compared the percentage of sales of the NIV today with the percentage of sales of the KJV among the reading populations of 17th, 18th, and 19th century Europe and America, I wonder if the NIV has the wherewithal to boast.

    Kiffin,
    We are also in the waning days of the church. I don't know if the preference of an apostate church is something to commend a translation.

    [ April 18, 2001: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  13. Kiffin

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    Aaron,

    There is no such things as the Waning days of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 28:18-20). Christ Churches and His Word are indestructible!
     
  14. Rockfort

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    &lt; Like Cassidy said, the KJV is the best selling of all time... &gt;

    As Cassidy also said, "If we determine truth and accuracy according to how well something sells, then pornography is the ultimate truth, for it sells better than any other printed material in the world!"

    Neither the KJV in the past nor the NIV in the present can claim any supremacy status in anything except their sales. "Remember, God has always worked with a REMNANT, not with the majority," as Cassidy also stated. So claiming any standard-by-majority status is a valid reason to be distrustful of any such claim.
     
  15. Blade

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    Although I appreciate the NKJV on its merits, and that it has updated some of the stilted language of the KJV, it is less accurate in its ability to differentiate between the singular/plural, subjective/objective pronouns, and first, second, and third person usages...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Dr. Cassidy, I believe that today we derive at least some of that to which you object from context. Certainly this doesn't answer all your objections, but take for instance the 2nd person singular and plural. Most of the time, it doesn't need to say thou or ye or thee or thine or whatever else they may be; the correct assignment to you (or your) can be made from context 9 times out of ten.

    You might find me switching sides, however, to agree with you to differentiate the two if they would employ the terms "y'all" and "y'all's" (Texan for 2nd person plural and 2nd person plural possessive). :D
     
  16. Aaron

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
    Aaron,

    There is no such things as the Waning days of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 28:18-20). Christ Churches and His Word are indestructible!
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm not a Landmarkist. There is promised a coming apostasy, and we are seeing the birth pangs of such, but this is all an entirely different subject and will say no more about it here.
     
  17. Aaron

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rockfort:
    &lt; Like Cassidy said, the KJV is the best selling of all time... &gt;

    As Cassidy also said, "If we determine truth and accuracy according to how well something sells, then pornography is the ultimate truth, for it sells better than any other printed material in the world!"

    Neither the KJV in the past nor the NIV in the present can claim any supremacy status in anything except their sales. "Remember, God has always worked with a REMNANT, not with the majority," as Cassidy also stated. So claiming any standard-by-majority status is a valid reason to be distrustful of any such claim.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I was simply yanking the majority claim out from under the NIV proponents. That's all.

    Yet you would have to agree that the majority opinion of righteous men is more reliable than the majority opinion of worldly men. I must say here that I am not in that statement saying that the KJV folks are more righteous than others. I am saying that a majority is conclusive evidence given the proper qualifiers.
     
  18. Kiffin

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    I am not a Landmarker either but you imply that the entire Church is going apostate and is going out of existence. That contradicts the words of Christ. Yes an apostasy is coming but Jesus isn't coming for a defeated Bride either. The Church will be triumphant (Mt. 16:18, 24:14) and the KJV's demise hasn't nothing to do with spiritual apostacy but a translation that is becoming archaic because of it's many outdated words and phrases. Like all great translations, the KJV will someday be a collectors edition Bible in a museum because of changes in the English language.

    Will the NKJV replace it? I doubt it. Will the NIV? If the sales trend continues for another 50 years, probably. Then again there may come another translation that may supercede them all or there may never be a dominant translation like the KJV again. One thing is certain is the KJV is no longer the dominant Bible and whether there will be one heir or many heirs to it's throne is the question.

    [ April 19, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
     
  19. Chris Temple

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    This post started with nothing to do at all about the best selling Bible of "all time"; the question was has the NIV replaced the KJV, and to all except those with their heads in the sand the answer is obviously "yes". It has nothing to do with which is best, which has sold most the longest, textual matters or anything else. Favorably or not, the NIV has become the standard Bible of English Bible users.
     
  20. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
    Favorably or not, the NIV has become the standard Bible of English Bible users.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How exactly did you determine that? Do you have a crystal ball? :D

    Have you polled every single Christian alive who reads an English bible? Just for your edification, I own virtually every bible from Wyclif to the CEV. In fact, I own several NIVs, BUT I don't use them in my teaching and preaching. I use them for study and comparison. So, from that "statistic" you would assume I have switched to the NIV as I own several of them, but only two currently published KJVs, and that assumption would be based on numbers sold, and not how they are used.

    [​IMG]

    [ April 19, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     

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