The OT or the Law?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Repent-or-Burn, Sep 19, 2009.

  1. Repent-or-Burn

    Repent-or-Burn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    0
    Elementary to many of you, I am sure.

    Are we under command to obey the OT, minus the law of Moses?
    I.E. if Proverbs tells us not to gossip, can I take someone to proverbs and tell them it's a "sin" to gossip?
    Clearly, I couldn't go to Moses' law and say: Stone her! I know that much.

    Or, is the entire OT now a schoolmaster and not ever to be commanded?

    Verses, please :D
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Romans 15:4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
     
  3. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

    Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
    14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


    John 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
    14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
    15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
    16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
    17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.


    John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

    John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

    1 John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
    9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
    10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
    11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
     
  4. Repent-or-Burn

    Repent-or-Burn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    0
    Winman.
    You seem to be saying that the generic term of love is what we are now commanded to do.

    I'm probably wrong, but are you saying that we do not even need to follow the NT? I don't see how 'most' of those verses point out the OT specifically.
     
  5. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are asking me.

    You asked before about gossip. Does gossip hurt people? Yes. Does lying hurt people? Yes. Does stealing hurt people? Yes. If you see someone starving and fail to give them food, does that hurt them? Yes.

    And I am not telling you anything. These verses are found in the New Testament. It is what Jesus and the apostles taught.
     
    #5 Winman, Sep 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2009
  6. Repent-or-Burn

    Repent-or-Burn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is how you grouped them together.
    And, okay. I see what you are getting at now.

    So, you believe I can use proverbs to prove that gossip is a sin.. right?

    More specifically what I want to know is... we are no longer under law but grace. What is law? The law of moses, right?

    Okay, what about the rest of the OT? Are we under that?
     
  7. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Boy, I am no expert at all on what the whole law of Moses was. But we do not have to keep the sacrifices or feasts, observances like that. You do not have to be circumcised. You can eat whatever you like now, although we are told not to eat what will offend our brother.

    But even the New Testament mentions many sins we should not do.

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


    You see whisperers mentioned in verse 29. I think that would be gossip.
     
  8. Repent-or-Burn

    Repent-or-Burn
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    179
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right. I know the NT repeats gossip, but I meant can I use the OT, by it's self - without the NT, to prove it? :)

    I do appreciate you though, thanks.
     
  9. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, all the moral laws shown still apply.

    Now, you understand, we are not saved by keeping these laws. We are saved by trusting Christ and him alone to save us. But Jesus wants us to love others as we love ourselves.

    And one important thing we must do is share the gospel with every one we can.

    Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
    26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
    27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
     
  10. Jeep Dragon

    Jeep Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2006
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which is the moral law and which is the ceremonial law? Sometimes I see preachers take out of what I would consider the ceremonial law and claim that it is the moral law. Is there a fine line to draw or do we have to guess at it? Did God make it difficult for us today to know what applies and what doesn't or did He make sure that all the moral laws necessary were reiterated in the New Testament?

    Well, we know that all of the New Testament applies to us, but maybe this part of the Old Testament... but not this part... but maybe this part... certainly this part... but I don't know about this part... definitely this part... I hope this part... of course not this part... maybe part of this part applies to us? Where is the line? :BangHead: I want to know and I'm sure God wants us to know how to live for Him as well.:godisgood:
     
  11. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,190
    Likes Received:
    373
    This is where reading the entire Scriptures in context comes into play. When we read the context, we understand what is directive or instructive or history for us. There's a difference.
     
  12. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, this is a very difficult study.

    For instance, here is a website that shows 613 laws the Jews were required to obey.

    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Taryag/taryag.html

    But we are commanded to love one another.

    Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    For instance, one law for the Jews was Lev 19:27

    Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

    Now, the fellow at that site defines this as cutting the hair around your ears. We are not under this kind of law. Cutting the hair around your ears does not harm another person.

    However, lying or stealing, or commiting adultery does harm your fellow man. We should never do anything like that.
     
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here is an article that might be of some help.
    From Middletown Bible Church



     
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,558
    Likes Received:
    273
    And I'll add to that if I may:

    Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action), So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:16,17 Amplified Bible

    [this is one of my favorites though]:

    ......Therefore every scribe who hath been made a disciple to the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. Mt 13:52

    [“The New is in the Old concealed, the Old is in the New revealed”]
     
    #14 kyredneck, Sep 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2009
  15. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    The OT Law revealed and reflected the holiness of God's character; no one could ever obey it completely. Galatians (I think) says that the law was "a tutor to lead us to Christ."

    We are not under the Law, but in Christ, we should have the desire to be conformed to His image (because we are being conformed) and thus, in growing closer to the image of Christ, we grow closer to the character of God reflected in the law. As believers, we should reflect a holy character which is based on the character of the Trinitarian God.

    The law is not useless or irrelevant; it's just that it was most fully revealed in Christ, who fulfilled it. In becoming redeemed, we are being transformed to His image, and thus the holiness of God as shown in the law is part of our transformation.
     

Share This Page

Loading...