The Passion of Jesus From A Medical Point of View

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeafChristian, Apr 2, 2004.

  1. DeafChristian

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  2. Phillip

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    Whatever the form of physical death and suffering; (and the author mentioned this) I think by far the pain Jesus suffered when our sin was poured upon him and distanced the Father was MUCH greater.

    This was an interesting article, much like the Passion, the point is the suffering, but I don't think we are capable of even coming close to a discription of THAT form of suffering.

    Not in a movie and not in an article. I did enjoy the article, just making an observation. ;)
     
  3. sharpSword

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    Isn't it odd that in the movie, which so many are touting as Scripturally and historically the way it was and saying it is accurate on the scourging and crucifixion, the movie had 'jesus' flogged on his front and back, and laying across the low post--which is about 2 ft tall, and when flogged on his front he is on the ground, one hand still tied to the post so he is in a half lying position. :rolleyes:

    Now we have this article saying he was flogged on his back and standing upright, which would be historically correct, and the same people are also agreeing with that. :confused:

    How can people agree with both concepts, and say they are both accurate?

    Quote from the article "The Roman soldiers placed Jesus’ torn clothes back on Him, picked up the crossbeam, and tied it to His arms, across His shoulders. He was in excruciating pain and perhaps still drifting in and out of consciousness,...He was led into the procession carrying the heavy patibulum of the cross, perhaps alongside the two thieves. This is called “The Journey along the Via Dolorosa,...”

    I am looking for Scripture for that, and cannot even find Via Dolorosa or Stations of the Cross. It's Catholic doctrine and also found in the mystical writings of Emmerich, Agreda and many more.

    Quote "Jesus was unable to carry the load. His body would at this time, if not before, have been going into a state of severe trauma and shock....: He literally went to the cross by following the cross."

    That is fully contrary to the Scriptures where we as Christians are supposed to obtain our doctrine. Jesus never followed behind the cross either.

    Quote, "This is called “The Journey along the Via Dolorosa,...”

    That's the Catholic doctrine Mr. Gibson is also dedicated to, and is the Stations of the Cross. Each station is considered a sacred reminder, and each fall of Christ, as he is presented as staggering and falling under the weight of the cross on the way to Golgotha.

    Scripture for the Stations of the cross?

    The Stations of the Cross, summed up are as follows, and as found in the movie, and referred to in the article.

    First: Jesus is condemned to die; Second: Jesus forced to carry the physical cross [goes against Gospel records]; Third: Jesus Falls the First Time, due to the weight of the cross [no Scripture to support] ; Fourth: Jesus Meets His Mother, and draws strength from her [no Scripture to support]; Fifth: Simon Helps Jesus Carry His Cross [Scripture shows Simon carried the cross the entire way] ; Sixth: Veronica Wipes the Face of Jesus [no Scripture to support&gt;she wiped the face of Jesus, according to this belief, an imprint of the face of Christ stayed on the cloth] ; Seventh: Jesus Falls the Second Time. [no Scripture to support]; Eighth: Jesus Meets the Women of Jerusalem [Luke 23:27-31, they are following behind Him and He turns around and tells them not to weep for Him , but for themselves]; Ninth: Jesus Falls the Third Time [no Scripture to support]; Tenth: Jesus is Stripped. [Matt 27:35, Luke 23:24, John 19:23]; Eleventh: Jesus is Nailed to the Cross [Luke 24:34-49 *39,40; John 19:23-29,*27] ; Twelfth: Jesus Dies On The Cross; Thirteenth: Jesus Is Taken Down From The Cross, and "lays in his mothers arms" [contrary to Luke 23:47-56, John 19:38-42] ; Fourteenth: Jesus Is Laid In The Tomb.

    Villages all over Europe created "replicas" of the "Stations of the cross", with small shrines commemorating the places along the route in Jerusalem. These shrines became the set of fourteen stations and have been situated in almost every Catholic Church in the world.

    Perhaps more denominations and churches should follow suit, since many are apparently in agreement with this doctrine. It would be Scripturally wrong to be double minded on it. It's either Scripturally accurate or it is not.

    Did Jesus carry the physical cross?

    I think this articles analysis sums it up quite well.

    http://www.SeekGod.ca/gibson.htm

    "...In the movie, Simon takes the cross from Jesus after he has carried it for about ten minutes and has fallen several times under its weight. Simon is selected, and grabbed from the crowd by the Roman guards, to "help" him carry it. ... Simon shouts at the guards to, "Stop it! ... "If you do not stop I will not carry that cross one more step"... implying he had a choice in the matter. As they are nearing the top of the hill, Simon encourages him to go on, saying, "we're nearly there"...Jesus, in the movie, is initially made to carry the whole cross, while the two thieves, who are given names, carry just the cross arms...

    In fact, in the Scriptures we see that Jesus NEVER carried the cross He was crucified on....In Matthew, Mark and Luke, it is recorded that the Roman soldiers, when leaving the hall with Jesus to go to crucify Him, after He had been scourged, mocked, hit, spit upon and blasphemed, the soldiers immediately compelled Simon, a Cyrenian, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear or carry the cross for Jesus. He in fact, followed behind Jesus, carrying the cross, which the soldiers placed on him. Normally only two witnesses are required to prove an event, and in the Gospel writers, we have three. 

    From Matthew: 27:27-32 

    Matthew 27: 27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers...31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
    ** 32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross. [KJV]

    *** 32 .... him &lt;touton&gt; they compelled &lt;aggareuo&gt; to &lt;hina&gt; bear &lt;airo&gt; his &lt;autos&gt; cross &lt;stauros&gt;.

    From Strong's Concordance:
    bear &lt;airo&gt;
    142. airw airo, ah'-ee-ro a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up). 

    In Mark :

    Mark 15:16 And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Praetorium; and they call together the whole band...20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him. 21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross. [KJV]

    **21.... to bear &lt;airo&gt; his &lt;autos&gt; cross &lt;stauros&gt;.

    Same as Matthew &gt; bear &gt; airo

    In Luke: 
    Luke 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. 28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. [KJV]

    ***26 .... and on &lt;epitithemi&gt; him &lt;autos&gt; they laid &lt;epitithemi&gt; the cross &lt;stauros&gt;, that he might bear &lt;phero&gt; it after &lt;opisthen&gt; Jesus &lt;Iesous&gt;.

    From Strong's Concordance: that he might bear &lt;phero&gt;
    5342. ferw phero, fer'-o a primary verb -- for which other, and apparently not cognate ones are used in certain tenses only; namely, 

    oio oy'-o; and enegko en-eng'-ko 

    to "bear" or carry (in a very wide application, literally and figuratively, as follows):--be, bear, bring (forth), carry, come, + let her drive, be driven, endure, go on, lay, lead, move, reach, rushing, uphold.

    From Strong's Concordance:

    it after &lt;opisthen&gt; 3693. opisten opisthen, op'-is-then from opis (regard; from 3700) with enclitic of source; from the rear (as a secure aspect), i.e. at the back (adverb and preposition of place or time):--after, backside, behind. 

    John 19 presents a version of this event which many declare to be a contradiction. It is not. 

    John 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
    17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: [KJV]

    ****17 And he bearing &lt;bastazo&gt; his &lt;autos&gt; cross &lt;stauros&gt; went forth &lt;exerchomai&gt;

    From Strong's Concordance: And he bearing &lt;bastazo&gt;
    941. bastazw bastazo, bas-tad'-zo &gt; perhaps remotely derived from the base of 939 (through the idea of removal); to lift, literally or figuratively (endure, declare, sustain, receive, etc.):--bear, carry, take up. 

    939. basiv basis, bas'-ece from baino (to walk); a pace ("base"), i.e. (by implication) the foot:--foot.

    From Strong's Concordance: went forth &lt;exerchomai&gt;
    1831. exercomai exerchomai, ex-er'-khom-ahee from 1537 and 2064; to issue (literally or figuratively):--come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad

    If we compare the use of 'bastazo' with other verses, the concept can and is applied to the spiritual act of bearing a cross or burden. The word bastazo can be used in a literal sense, for example, to carry a jug, but because there are three witnesses, i.e. the written testimony of the writers of the other three Gospels, those witnesses should suffice, that Simon was compelled to carry the physical cross for Jesus, from the time He left the Hall. Normally only two witnesses are required to prove an event.

    Examples : Matthew 3:11 [John the Baptist speaking of Christ] "...whose shoes I am not worthy to bear &lt;bastazo&gt;..." [KJV]

    Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet , saying , Himself &lt;autos&gt; took &lt;lambano&gt; our infirmities &lt;astheneia&gt;, and bare &lt;bastazo&gt; our sicknesses &lt;nosos&gt;. [KJV]

    Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth &lt;bastazo&gt; not &lt;ou&gt; bear &lt;bastazo&gt; his &lt;autos&gt; cross &lt;stauros&gt;, and come &lt;erchomai&gt; after me , cannot be my disciple. [KJV]

    Acts 9:15 [Referring to Paul] But the Lord &lt;kurios&gt; said unto him , Go thy way : for he is a chosen vessel unto me , to bear &lt;bastazo&gt; my name &lt;onoma&gt; before the Gentiles &lt;ethnos&gt;, and kings , and the children of Israel : [KJV]...." end quote

    ******
    Simon was compelled to carry the cross from the hall, and he followed behind Christ. They did not co-carry the cross, nor did Jesus stagger and fall under it. There is no Scripture to support that.

    From the crucifixion article, "He saw His mother and the beloved disciple, John, and asked John to take care of His mother"

    ---Jesus didnt ask them--He told!

    Again a quote from the article " possibly no more than an agonized whisper, "It is finished," and "Father! Into thy hands I commit my spirit."

    "Agonized whisper"?---that goes against the Scriptures--Jesus said it in a loud voice.

    Matt 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. ...49   The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

    Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    Then the writer of the article contradicts his previous statement by saying "The fact that Jesus cried out in a loud voice and then bowed his head and died"

    How can he both barely whisper it and then say it in a loud voice? :rolleyes:

    Quote "However, to make darn sure, one of the soldiers, out of rage or sport, thrust a lance–a spear--into His side."

    Not "to make darn sure"!!! To fulfill prophecy!

    Psalm 34:20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken

    John 19:34   But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
    35   And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
    36   For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
    37   And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

    And people grab onto these things instead of the Word of God. [​IMG]
     
  4. Phillip

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    The man was simply attempting to make an article based on his observations of what occurred at the site. If he varies from scripture, somewhat, then he is in error. The same with the movie.

    Nobody here (that I know of) said the movie of the article was "in itself" scripture.
     
  5. Phillip

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    I think people are trying to show the amount of suffering did for us. If there is disinformation there, then it is harmful if it goes against doctrine, but if they are just in error on whether or not they wipped him on the front, etc. then consider the suffering and not the specifics whether he was standing or kneeling.
     
  6. Spirit and Truth

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    It appears that Sharp Sword not only has a two edged sword, but has an eagle eye for Biblical error as well. :eek:

    What a winning combination.......
     
  7. sharpSword

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    Phillip quote "The man was simply attempting to make an article based on his observations of what occurred at the site. If he varies from scripture, somewhat, then he is in error. The same with the movie.

    Nobody here (that I know of) said the movie of the article was "in itself" scripture. "

    Phillip Quote "I think people are trying to show the amount of suffering did for us. If there is disinformation there, then it is harmful if it goes against doctrine, but if they are just in error on whether or not they wipped him on the front, etc. then consider the suffering and not the specifics whether he was standing or kneeling. "

    Phillip I am so surprised at you. Your statement , "If he varies from scripture, somewhat, then he is in error. The same with the movie", is really a surprise to hear you say that. Although it does align with the BB Statement of Faith regarding the Scriptures as being our source of knowledge and opinion.

    http://www.baptistboards.com

    Baptist Board Statement of Faith

    Publication Date: September 2002

    Baptist Board.com - What we believe (Source: The Baptist Faith and Message (SBC)

    I. The Scriptures

    The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy. It reveals the principles by which God judges us, and therefore is, and will remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried. All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation." end quote

    I find it incredibly interesting in that you have said things like this before:

    phillip: Did the Bible tell every single step he took?

    Didn't I read "somewhere in the gospels" (tongue-in-cheek) that the Romans had someone help him carry the cross because of the heavy load. How do we know he didn't fall there?

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/10/3748/8.html?

    It's interesting that you said something to the effect on another thread, that just because someone says they got something from the Holy Spirit does not mean that is the true source. That has to apply to Mel Gibson since he said that the Holy Spirit directed the making of the movie. That would mean the Holy Spirit directed him to use divination sources.

    Does that align to Scripture or is that errant theology, according to your above statements?

    You are not quite accurate on your statements about" "Nobody here (that I know of) said the movie of the article was "in itself" scripture. "

    Many people view the movie, and now will view that article, as Scripturally and historically accurate and endorse it as such, even though the movie has been proven time and again to go against the Scriptures, and also is historically inaccurate. And of course there is the declaration of "The greatest evangelistic tool in two thousand years!", and people delcaring that it holds the truth of what Jesus really went through.

    For example in this post:

    Page link: http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/10/3748/11.html?
    Webmaster: I added the banner (free of charge) because I support the movie.

    For a partial list of positives, see this link:
    http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpcollectionnews.asp?ID=41

    http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=17589

    "LifeWay President James T. Draper Jr. said the film is a must-see for anyone seeking to understand how an event 2,000 years ago continues to impact lives today. "Mel Gibson has brought the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to the big screen in a biblically accurate and powerfully graphic way," Draper said. "The faithful depiction of the violence done to our Lord has resulted in an R rating, so while I highly recommend the film, I encourage parents to see it with their teenagers,...."

    Southern Baptist Convention , Jack Graham, President &gt;Baptist Press, Aug 22, 2003 &gt; "The movie is biblical, powerful and potentially life-changing."

    From Icon and other sources :

    Rick Warren &gt;Pastor - Saddleback Church &gt;Author - "Purpose Driven Life" &gt;"Brilliant, biblical - a masterpiece." (Comments following a screening)

    The King's Seminary &gt;Jack W. Hayford, Chancellor &gt; ""The Passion" is a forthright, compassionate, evenhanded presentation of the historic facts of the trial, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. I found it deeply moving, factually accurate and unprejudiced in its presentation. As a Bible scholar, I was impacted by the integrity of the film to the testimony of scriptures. ..."

    Billy Graham Evangelistic Association &gt; Billy Graham, President, Tuesday November 25,&gt; " After watching 'The Passion of the Christ,' I feel as if I have actually been there. I was moved to tears. I doubt if there has ever been a more graphic and moving presentation of Jesus' death and resurrection - which Christians believe are the most important events in human history." "The film is faithful to the Bible's teaching that we are all responsible for Jesus' death, because we have all sinned," Graham continued. "It is our sins that caused His death, not any particular group. No one who views this film's compelling imagery will ever be the same."

    National Association of Evangelicals &gt;Ted Haggard , President &gt; NAE Release, July 22, 2003: "...The National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) affirms the importance of the authentic retelling of the New Testament accounts in Mel Gibson's latest film, The Passion. The NAE has established this position of support for the film in response to numerous attacks leveled at Gibson and the film. In interviews on CNN and various radio networks, Ted Haggard, President of the NAE has described The Passion as, "A beautiful, wonderful account of the last twelve hours of the life of Jesus Christ. It is consistent with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John." At a special showing in Colorado Springs, Colorado, Haggard, along with 30 other prominent evangelical leaders, reviewed the film and encouraged Gibson to release it with minor stylistic adjustments. All acknowledged the biblical accuracy of Gibson's creative dramatization of the historical account. ..." The movie portrays historical accounts realistically, but the Body of Christ worldwide does not blame Jewish people for the crucifixion.... He maintained that evangelical Christendom values the realistic portrayal of Jesus' last day and believes that the final effect of The Passion will be positive for Judaism in America and around the world...."

    Focus on the Family &gt; Donald Hodel &gt;President and CEO &gt; July 14, 2003 "... For what I believe to be the right reasons The Passion was profoundly compelling and affecting. The quality and realism of the acting, the setting, adherence to the historical record, its intensity and pacing all amount to an outstanding and moving film. ...While some of its depictions of violence are adult-level material, this stunning film must be seen by as many people as possible. For our part, Focus on the Family applauds The Passion and it is a film we will heartily recommend to our constituents. (From a letter to Icon) [official endorsement also said] "...For our part, Focus on the Family applauds The Passion. It is a film we will heartily recommend to our 10 million listeners and constituents in North America, and 220 million worldwide."

    Focus On The Family &gt; Del Tackett ,Executive Vice President &gt; "It has been nearly three weeks since I saw the rough cut of The Passion. It is still impacting my life. I can't stop thinking about it nor can I stop talking about it. I have never seen a film that has so affected my life. It is powerful, moving, and disturbing. The film is true to the Bible and other historical evidence, yet it is alive with emotion and the harshness of reality. I do not want to see it again, yet I will be compelled from within to do so - not only again, but again and again. No one will be able to leave the theatre and not be moved at the core of their being. (From a letter to Icon)

    Christian Broadcasting Network &gt; Pat Robertson, Chairman and CEO &gt; "...the finest work that has ever been done on this subject. ... The action is gripping, and I believe that having the dialogue in Latin and Aramaic adds tremendously to the dramatic effect...More than anything your portrayal of the suffering of Jesus is with a few exceptions in total accord with the biblical narrative. It is therefore wonderfully authentic...I understand there are at least 50 million evangelicals in the United States and nearly as many Roman Catholics...It will be my pleasure to use whatever facilities we have available at The Christian Broadcasting Network to help you publicize this outstanding work. (From a letter to Icon)

    Crystal Cathedral / Hour of Power &gt;Dr. Robert Schuller &gt; "The Passion is an awe-inspiring portrayal of the last hours of Jesus' life. It is an accurate account of Jesus' real sufferings for the sins of the whole world. This is not a film anyone should miss. I make available to you the use our television program - the most widely viewed religious television program in the world - to promote your upcoming film! "(From a letter to Icon)

    Tim LaHaye &gt; Tim LaHaye Ministries &gt; "THE PASSION is the finest presentation of the last hours of Jesus' life I have ever seen. It is a scripturally accurate account of how He really suffered for the sins of the whole world...Everyone should see this movie. The believers who see this film will be renewed in their commitment to Christ....It is sensitive to the Savior, Biblically accurate, ...extremely impressed with Mel Gibson's spiritual passion on wanting to present the true nature of Christ's suffering for all the world to see. It gives a message that will benefit people of all faiths, cultures, and backgrounds. (From a letter to Icon)

    Perhaps you could clarify if something can be Scripturally accurate if it is based on divination or, in the case of the Stations of the cross....false doctrine.

    Jesus "despised the shame of the cross". I can't help wonder how people enjoy it.

    Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Thanks
     
  8. Phillip

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    Oh my goodness; here we go again. I wish I could get the same percentage in return on my investments as I get in verbage on my posts. :rolleyes:
     
  9. Charles Meadows

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    Oops, she dropped her big sword on her foot again. :rolleyes:
     
  10. Charles Meadows

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    Not bad. I'd say that the conclusion that Jesus did not die from asphyxia is not proved. The "water" could have still been pleural or pericardial effusion from severe shock - particluarly if his lungs were atelectatic from lack of deep inspiration. Other than that it's a very accurate article.
     
  11. MalkyEL

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    Dr Charles wrote:
    Not bad. I'd say that the conclusion that Jesus did not die from asphyxia is not proved. The "water" could have still been pleural or pericardial effusion from severe shock - particluarly if his lungs were atelectatic from lack of deep inspiration. Other than that it's a very accurate article.

    MalkyEL: Jesus did not die of physical causes.

    John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
    18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Mark 14:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

    Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
     
  12. MalkyEL

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    Excellent information, sharpsword - I appreciate the fact that it is based Scripturally and not on tradition and "feelings".

    Another thing I noticed about the article by Richard J. Krejcir, is that he dwelt significantly on the suffering of Jesus in the Garden. Although, I agree that Jesus suffered - I think that if we look at what the Bible says about it, we can get a clear and truthful picture.

    Mr. Krejcir stated in his article:
    "When someone is under great emotional stress, the minuscule capillaries that are in and around the sweat glands (some as small as the width of the blood cells) will break, and some blood mixes in with the sweat. The result is, sweating blood!"

    Posted on another thread [Let's Hang Mel Gibson] I found this interesting fact:

    S&T:

    I agree that this is a posibility, due to adrenaline release causing elevated blood pressure that would stress the capillaries, but this has been questioned in the past because of the way it is written in the Greek:

    hosei {ho-si'}
    TDNT Reference
    Root Word
    Not Available from 5613 and 1487
    Part of Speech
    adv
    Outline of Biblical Usage
    1) as it were, (had been), as though, as, like as, like
    2) about, nearly
    a) before numerals
    b) before a measure of time

    **********************************************

    As I posted on another thread:
    Imho, I believe that Jesus suffered more spiritually, than physically. I am not downplaying His physical suffering, but rather looking at it Biblically. His suffering in the garden was a spiritual one - as He contemplated the weight of sin that was to be placed upon Him.

    There is no human way to comprehend the magnitude of this weight and responsibility. I believe that this is why He prayed to let the cup pass, not because He was not willing to die for our sin, but because He knew what He would face - separation from His Father because He was made sin for us - The Sacrificial Lamb.

    We have only a "glimpse" of oneness with God here on earth. Jesus is God. For that reason, to be separated from Him was anathama and an extreme, excruiciating weight of grief, sorrow, and agony. He was 100% willing, but also knew the separation would be more painful than anything known to us.

    From http://www.seekgod.ca/gibson1.htm

    While in the garden, Jesus said He was heavily burdened with sorrow and deep grief, not fear. He, who was without sin, was going to deal with the sin of all mankind.
    Matthew 26: 37....and began &lt;archomai&gt; to be sorrowful &lt;lupeo&gt; and &lt;kai&gt; very heavy &lt;ademoneo&gt;.38 Then saith he unto them , My soul is exceeding sorrowful &lt;perilupos&gt;, even unto death &lt;thanatos&gt;.... [KJV]

    From Strong's Concordance: exceeding sorrowful &lt;perilupos&gt;

    4036. perilupov perilupos, per-il'-oo-pos
    from 4012 and 3077; grieved all around, i.e. intensely sad:--exceeding (very) sorry(-owful).

    3077. luph lupe, loo'-pay apparently a primary word; sadness:--grief, grievous, + grudgingly, heaviness, sorrow.

    very heavy &lt;ademoneo&gt;

    85. adhmonew ademoneo, ad-ay-mon-eh'-o
    from a derivative of adeo (to be sated to loathing); to be in distress (of mind):--be full of heaviness, be very heavy.

    sorrowful &lt;lupeo&gt;

    3076. lupew lupeo, loo-peh'-o
    from 3077; to distress; reflexively or passively, to be sad:--cause grief, grieve, be in heaviness, (be) sorrow(-ful), be (make) sorry.

    Jesus taught to never fear those who could kill the body. God is without hypocrisy. When we fear, we are not made perfect in love, because fear is sin. This movie “Jesus” was made sinful and is therefore not the perfect sacrifice. That violates Scripture and presents another Jesus. The movie Jesus is made to lose all presence of the Divinity of Christ and His purpose and becomes a weak, fearful man who must draw on the strength of his mother, which makes Mary the sinless one in the movie. The Jesus of the Bible was God come in the flesh, the perfect sacrifice, who was physically invigorated in the Garden by an angel. He willingly fulfilled His purpose, and needed no human help to go to the cross. That weakness and fear comes from the writings of the mystics such as Anne Emmerich's The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Jesus taught to never fear those who could kill the body. God is without hypocrisy.

    1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
    19 We love him, because he first loved us. [KJV]

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [KJV]

    Luke 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. [KJV]

    Mr Krejcer also stated:

    While His disciples did not have the courtesy to wait up with Him, a mental trauma of anguish and betrayal occurred (Matt. 26:36-45). The Roman soldiers and government officials came, by means of Judas’ lead, to arrest our Lord by the hour of darkness (Luke 22:52; Eph. 6:12; Col. 1:13). Further betrayal. Jesus was then brought before the Jewish rulers, the Sanhedrin, at the home of the High Priest, Caiphus. He was subjected to more physical trauma--this time by the hands of others--people whom He created and loved!

    **************************

    Although Jesus was betrayed and I am sure that it affected Him, a search through the NT does not mention the betrayals, nor does it speak of His physical suffering except for a passing comment. The suffering of Jesus had everything to do with the sin that He took upon Himself.

    Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Hbr 9:26 ***For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world*** : but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

    1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. ***For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil***.
     
  13. sharpSword

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    Hahhahahahahahahaha [​IMG] I didn't drop my Sword. You guys came unarmed. No Scripture again in your answers, boys. [​IMG]

    Charles "Other than that it's a very accurate article. :

    ROFL. Now Charles you already stated the movie was accurate, and the depiction correct. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. Do I sense a double minded opinion on how the scourging and crucifixion took place. Lets see... article,..scourging... standing up with arms extended above head and scourging on the back....movie....laying down and flogged on the back ...ooops --divination---on the front too....no inconsistencies there...totally accurate.

    In the movie, the Roman guard dislocated 'Jesus' right arm in order to nail it to the cross by tying a rope onto it and yanking on it repeatedly and vigorously.....source...divination

    OOPs ....I forgot.....the Stations of the cross--in the movie and the article...proven unScriptural ... but "very accurate"

    Please...Phillip.. just once...answer the questions I asked you with actual Scriptural validation. Remember the one I asked you about the "mind of Christ." on the other thread. We get it from being in alignment to the Word of God. Do you agree?
     
  14. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    oooooohhhhhhh nooooooooo. Everybody without scriptural proof........ run....run..... SharpSword is on the loose..........someone better call one of the EMT's that are on standby at the Passion showings.... [​IMG]

    Someone's "feeling" are getting sliced......
     
  15. Charles Meadows

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    So acording to the Sharpsword version if it ain't actually IN the bible it didn't happen. Let's read through the gospels now. So how long was Jesus' life? Two hours, three hours? I suppose He never went to the bathroom or anything like that either. I never said we could prove the movie accurate - but you cannot prove that it isn't. It intended to show what Jesus suffered for us. My guess is that since it was made by papists there are plenty of stodgy Christians who hated it before they even saw it - if they saw it at all! :D

    By the way - do you know what the word divination actually means?
     
  16. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Charles:

    So acording to the Sharpsword version if it ain't actually IN the bible it didn't happen. Let's read through the gospels now. So how long was Jesus' life? Two hours, three hours?

    S&T:

    According to Jewish tradition, you had to be 30 years of age to be a rabbi. This can be historically proven without mystical sources.

    Charles:

    I suppose He never went to the bathroom or anything like that either. I never said we could prove the movie accurate - but you cannot prove that it isn't. It intended to show what Jesus suffered for us. My guess is that since it was made by papists there are plenty of stodgy Christians who hated it before they even saw it - if they saw it at all!

    S&T:

    Charles,

    As an anti passionite, one who has viewed the film four times, and participant in this discussion on many threads, I am wondering if maybe your catholic roots are getting a little inflamed by these criticisms. I know that you are now a Baptist, but I presume you still have family members that are catholics, so let me share my feekings on this. I have nothing against any catholics. My beef is with false teaching, whether it be Baptist, Charismatic, etc, and this movie is full of it.
     
  17. sharpSword

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    Now Charles. I thought it was women who were the emotional ones and men went by facts....or so I have been told. :D

    Charles Quote "So according to the Sharpsword version if it ain't actually IN the bible it didn't happen. Let's read through the gospels now. So how long was Jesus' life? Two hours, three hours? I suppose He never went to the bathroom or anything like that either. I never said we could prove the movie accurate - but you cannot prove that it isn't. It intended to show what Jesus suffered for us. My guess is that since it was made by papists there are plenty of stodgy Christians who hated it before they even saw it - if they saw it at all! "

    Actually Jesus lived approximately 33 years .... did you not know that? "Stodgy Christians" Charles....does that mean anyone the rejects the movie is stodgy....and since Catholic doctrine can be proven Biblically false or errant...whats the problem? Aren't you in agreement with the Baptist Board statment of faith?

    Charles you said "I never said we could prove the movie accurate - but you cannot prove that it isn't."

    Let me see.....stations of the cross...proven not Biblical....dangling from a bridge....not Biblical...source ...divination....need I do a point by point of my many statements showing Scripture including the role of Mary...even to her holding the Body...not Biblical...errant doctrine...and proven so?

    Anything that says it portrays Scripture has to align to Scripture. Not a difficult concept. When the people did not fall away from Jesus in the garden in the movie...but in Scripture they did when He said I Am He....false doctrine and proven so.

    Charles you said "By the way - do you know what the word divination actually means? "

    Well actually Charles, you must have missed my post on it on a few other threads. Here, this might help you understand divination and use of it from God's perspective.

    Job 14:4 "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."

    Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

    There were given a list of nine occult practices which are forbidden by God and revealed to all as "abominations to the Lord."

    Deuteronomy 18:9-12 "When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee"

    We have no business enjoying or considering something to be innocent or alright that is an abomination to our Lord.

    We definitely have no business calling it Biblically sound or good and of Him, if it is an abomination to Him. A quick review of those abominations revealed in the Scriptures shows this, sourcing various dictionaries and so on.

    Someone who uses divination, which is defined as &gt;"determine by lot or magical scroll; soothsayer.; oracle, witchcraft. Divination is also defined as "The act of divining; a foretelling future events, or discovering things secret or obscure, by the aid of superior beings, or by other than human means." aka ...demons

    Thats the stuff of emmerich, bridget and mary of agreda, which mel gibson used for his script and which is portrayed in scene after scene.

    Emmerich was known to have a 'spirit' as a companion that accompanied her wherever she went, she levitated and so on.

    The Hebrew word for "an enchanter" means properly, to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell, divine, enchanter. Webster defined an enchanter as, "One who enchants; a sorcerer or magician; one who has spirits or demons at his command; one who practices enchantment, or pretends to perform surprising things by the agency of demons."

    A consulter with familiar spirits, which was emmerich, agreda and bridget, is one who asks or inquires infromation from a divining spirit. This spirit was supposed to be in the person of the conjurer, and was used to reveal to what was secret or hidden in the future ...aka demon possession.

    A person who is a necromancer" is supposed to foretell the future by communicating with the dead; a magician, sorcerer, magician, a conjurer-which was emmerich, agreda and bridget.--and Mel Gibson sourced their divination for his movie which many call God given.

    All those abominations fit what emmerich, mary of agreda and bridget were/are about. And therefore the Scriptures apply. Because Mel Gibson sourced their writings which came via divination.

    How are those who belong to Jesus Christ to view divination and its end results?

    Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

    Paul said in Galatians 5:19-21, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

    We have been warned.

    1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    giving heed &lt;prosecho&gt; to seducing &lt;planos&gt; spirits &lt;pneuma&gt;, and doctrines &lt;didaskalia&gt; of devils &lt;daimonion&gt;;

    giving heed &lt;prosecho&gt; 4337. prosecw prosecho, pros-ekh'-o from 4314 and 2192; (figuratively) to hold the mind (3563 implied) towards, i.e. pay attention to, be cautious about, apply oneself to, adhere to:--(give) attend(-ance, -ance at, -ance to, unto), beware, be given to, give (take) heed (to unto); have regard.

    to seducing &lt;planos&gt; 4108. planov planos, &gt; plan'-os of uncertain affinity; roving (as a tramp), i.e. (by implication) an impostor or misleader; --deceiver, seducing.

    1319. didaskalia didaskalia, did-as-kal-ee'-ah &gt;from 1320; instruction (the function or the information):--doctrine, learning, teaching.

    doctrines &lt;didaskalia&gt; 1319. didaskalia didaskalia, did-as-kal-ee'-ah from 1320; instruction (the function or the information):--doctrine, learning, teaching.

    of devils &lt;daimonion&gt;; 1140. daimonion daimonion, dahee-mon'-ee-on neuter of a derivative of 1142; a dæmonic being; by extension a deity:--devil, god.
    1142. daimwn daimon, dah'-ee-mown from daio (to distribute fortunes); a dæmon or supernatural spirit (of a bad nature):--devil.

    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy

    Speaking lies 5573. qeudologov pseudologos, psyoo-dol-og'-os &gt; from 5571 and 3004; mendacious, i.e. promulgating erroneous Christian doctrine:--speaking lies.
    5571. qeudhv pseudes, psyoo-dace' from 5574; untrue, i.e. erroneous, deceitful, wicked:--false, liar.

    in hypocrisy 5272. upokrisiv hupokrisis, hoop-ok'-ree-sis from 5271; acting under a feigned part, i.e. (figuratively) deceit ("hypocrisy"):--condemnation, dissimulation, hypocrisy.

    1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

    2 Cor 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
    15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

    Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    no fellowship 4790. sugkoinwnew sugkoinoneo, soong-koy-no-neh'-o from 4862 and 2841; to share in company with, i.e. co-participate in:--communicate (have fellowship) with, be partaker of.

    Jesus, our Lord, said very clearly

    Mt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    Lu 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Lu 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit
     
  18. Charles Meadows

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    S&T,

    Actually I do have catholic family members - and unfortunately most are really probably agnostic. I'm trying to change that.

    Here's my problem with the "anti-passion movement". It epitomizes the idea of choking on gnats! If we were talking about "Last Temptation of Christ" I would be right there with you bashing it. But we're talking about a movie that was done by a conservative Christian (albeit a catholic one) to be used as a tool of witness. Yes he took a little license - a filmmaker would have to do so - the gospels are thin books. He had to supply some details!!

    This movie has done alot of good in my community. And it makes me mad to see Christians who rail against shorts, pants on women, NIV bibles , and now this movie - as if these are the biggest evils in society! I remember a lady in a local church who told a young single mother that she had no business in the church wearin' those pants and that she had on - and that it probably had somethin' to do with the fact that she wasn't married either. That young lady left the church in tears and hasn't been back since. When another young man said, "what if she never comes back to church," the lady said, "well that ain't my problem."

    Where do you think that "Christian" lady will be someday? HELL is my best guess - no matter how many verses she quoted or how many times she said, "Lord, Lord".

    The "anti passion movement" teaches us to worry about the wrong things! The movie showed a literal death and resurrection with Jesus obviously God's son. Where is the great false doctrine? Is it because a soldier grabbed His arm in one scene? Is it because His hair was too long? Choking on gnats!!

    Satan does not want God to get glory from this movie.
     
  19. LadyEagle

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    Preach it, Brother Charles! Amen! [​IMG]
     
  20. sharpSword

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    Charles Quote "The "anti passion movement" teaches us to worry about the wrong things! The movie showed a literal death and resurrection with Jesus obviously God's son. Where is the great false doctrine? Is it because a soldier grabbed His arm in one scene? Is it because His hair was too long? Choking on gnats!!"

    Actually I kind of thought making sure we had sound doctrine from the Scriptures was focusing on the right things.

    Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

    Perhaps you have a Scripture that overrides that concept? Do you also have a Scripture that shows that God overturned His view on the use of demons...aka... use of divination information for a source for the entire movie?

    Lets see....false doctrine...using demonic sources to declare Biblical prophecy about Jesus Christ. Hmmm.......the prophets are subject to the prophets and Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Now if you could provide the Scripture that says demons via divination are supposed to proclaim TRUTH about Jesus Christ and that their father of lies....also proclaims truth...then maybe we have something here.

    Jeremiah 14:14 states: 14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

    Mary and Mary Magdalene did not actually watch the scourging, nor did they, as depicted in the movie, get towels from Pilate's wife to sop up the blood.
    John 18:13-18, Matthew 26:57,58, Mark 14:54 The scourging took place in the Praetorium and Scripture says a group of Roman soldiers were there to mock and ridicule Him. No one else.

    That is Catholic doctrine..not Scripture.

    Is it Scriptural, that the “Jesus” of this movie, when asked to identify himself and says I AM He, has no one falling over backwards?  That “Jesus” is therefore not a presentation of the Christ or the God of the Scriptures. 

    John 18:6 As soon then as He had said unto them, I am He, they went backward, and fell to the ground. [KJV]

    His Divinty is eliminated in that presentation.

    From the Chicago Tribune article "The Jesuit scholar who translated `The Passion'" by Nathan Bierma, March 4, 2004:

    "....Fulco left Greek out of "The Passion," substituting Latin... He also made mostly imperceptible distinctions between the elegant Latin of Pilate and the crude Latin of soldiers, thanks to an X-rated source he found on his shelf.

    "I tracked down some obscene graffiti from Roman army camps," ... "Somebody who knows Latin really well, their ears will fall off. We didn't subtitle those words."

    ...I put in playful things which nobody will know. There's one scene where Caiaphas turns to his cohorts and says something in Aramaic. The subtitle says, `You take care of it.' He's actually saying, `Take care of my laundry.'...he incorporated deliberate dialogue errors in the scenes where the Roman soldiers, speaking Aramaic, are shouting to Jewish crowds, who respond in Latin...

    "there's an exchange where Pilate addresses Jesus in Aramaic, and Jesus answers in Latin. It's kind of a nifty little symbolic thing: Jesus is going to beat him at his own game," Fulco said. "One line [in that exchange] I kind of enjoyed is when Jesus says, `My power is given from above, otherwise my followers would not have allowed this.' ..." metromix.chicagotribune.com/movies/mmx-0403040033mar04,0,3912206.story?coll=mmx-movies_heds

    Now Charles, here is a statement which according to the Scriptures would have portrayed the Divinity of Christ. Instead that was changed so that the Divinity of Christ is removed.

    What was actually said by Jesus, was not that My power was given from above, but that MY Kingdom was not of this world.

    That difference changes perception of the Divinity of Christ:

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Now perhaps the Divinty of Christ is a "gnat" for you...but it is definitely a Scriptural concept I would not want to be known to have changed or eliminated...

    I am still looking for the artistic license Scripture that allows the Divinity of Christ to be removed from HIs own words...for entertainment and evangelistic purposes and opportunities.

    Charles you said "He had to supply some details!! "

    And so he did Charles....from divination sources...Emmerich, Agreda, and Bridget...Mel Gibson said so himself.

    Quote "This movie has done alot of good in my community. And it makes me mad to see Christians who rail against shorts, pants on women, NIV bibles , and now this movie - as if these are the biggest evils in society! "

    I am puzzled by your statements Charles. What does shorts and pants on women have to do with discussion of the movie? I don't recall ever saying anything about that....nor do those who evaluate the movie to the Scriptures necessarily believe that... perhaps you are thinking of something else.

    Charles you said :"Satan does not want God to get glory from this movie"

    Actually, since Satan inspired so much of the content of the movie...he wants it used as much as possible.

    Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
    26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?...31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

    2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
     

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