The place of women in the Church

What does this verse mean? Well, let's consider it.

First, the previous verse says, "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." We see a crucial thing here: Paul points to the law when he mentions the command for women to be under obedience. He must be pointing to Genesis 3:16 when God told Eve that her desire would be to her husband and he would rule over her. Thus we notice that this isn't a cultural thing, but rather applies to all situations in all times.

Being under obedience is apparently tied to being submissive to the husband, having the husband be the head, etc. Paul applies this structure to the church as well. In the church, apparently the men are also to lead. We find this to be perfectly in agreement with the fact that the two church offices are restricted to men. Thus we see NT scripture painting us a picture of church order.

Now, keeping silence in the churches, not being permitted to speak in the churches, is tied in with this principle. Thus, I think what Paul is referring to is women taking over the leadership roles in churches, and he is forbidding it based on God's order of things. This well accords with what he wrote to Timothy when he said, "I suffer not a woman to teach, not to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." The silence the woman is commanded to be in refers to the leadership positions.

Now, we look at the verse of the OP and see that Paul is doing this: placing the woman under the authority of her husband. This is well in keeping with the order of things already laid out.

Now, these verses refer to the leadership positions in the church, and only to those things. Paul is not forbidding women to speak at all in the church setting, but rather is forbidding them from taking the authorative leadership positions. But, let me run this the other way, because that is exactly what Paul does when speaking of marriage and the duties of husband and wife. Paul is placing the leadership roles in the church on the man. So, we see that the men must step forward and take these positions and provide good leadership for the church. If the woman is to learn from her husband, her husband better apply himself and be a sufficient leader. If the woman is not to teach or usurp authority over the man, the man needs to step up and be the leader and teacher the church needs. Men, this responsibility falls on us and we need to step up and fill the role.

This is not, I repeat not, forbidding women from being involved in church affairs. Members of the church have a say in church matters. This is about leadership, and the men are ordained of God to be leaders. We better take that seriously. I know of a church where it is complained by certain others that a female member basically runs the church, and it is suggested that she is overstepping her bounds. Well, that might be right, but I'd rather place the blame where it really belongs and that is on the male members. If they would step up and lead as they should, there wouldn't be a problem.

 

Radam, I think you hit the nail on the head. :thumbsup:

(If I may speak so boldly) :tongue3:

 

Exactly, men who refuse to lead, teach, and serve will have women who will lead, teach, and serve in their place and that to their shame.

 

I praise God that in my church, since the scriptures teach...

...the women (who have breath) in my church are given the same opportunity to testify and give praise reports..speaking of course..as the men are.

We woudnt ever want to go against the scriptures and forbid anyone who "has breath" to praise the Lord.

 

I just tore the books of Ruth and Esther from my Bible. Can't have women leading men under the law, can we?

It is clear that the church in Corinth had a cultural problem with women. Hence, don;t cut your hair ladies, because that is what happens to the prostitutes, and your hair is a glory unto God. Keep silent in the churches ladies because these worldly women in the streets are speaking out..Show them the difference with your respect for God

Oh right then there is the great commission regarding the dangerous mission field: "Here am I, Lord; send her..."

Cheers,

Jim

 

Stilllearning, what would you have done if that saint that rankled you in a business meeting had been a man? You couldn't have used the OP verse to stifle him.

 

Good grief. Like clockwork someone comes out with the cultural problem idea. Look, the fact that Paul told Timothy essentially the same thing and placed no reference to a specific place he had under consideration complete blows the "Corinth had a problem with this" idea out of the water.

I would also be curious as to how the books of Esther and Ruth undermine my position. And don't be vague about it, get specific.

 

Yes.

Because the "cultural problem" explanation is a 100% appropiate and relavent .

 

Ok, you have a few things to explain in that case.

1. Paul wrote essentially the same thing to Timothy but gave no specific location where the alleged cultural problem exists.

2. Paul references the fall when speaking of this subject in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy.

3. Paul places the woman under the authority of her husband. Elsewhere, he does the same in terms of the marriage and household.

4. Paul restricts the offices of elder and deacon to men.

Obviously, the NT isn't speaking of cultural issues or some problem in some location. All over the NT epistles we see the rule that men are to be in the leadership role in the marriage and in the church. This wasn't cultural, it was God's rule and the same held true every since the fall.

 

RAdam... Just curious... I agree men are in the leadership roles, but what is your opinion about a man in a leadership role letting a woman speak? In this scenario the man never loses his leadership role, and the woman is still under the man's leadership.

 

The "cultural problem" is 100% inappropriate, irrelevant and wrong. Paul clearly does not base these statements on cultural distinctives, but instead on the order of creation. How can the order of creation be a cultural distinction? This is absurd. Paul was clearly stating that there are to be gender roles within the church...just as there are within the home. Some of the expressions of this principle, that Paul deals with, are indeed cultural (length of hair, etc.), but the principle itself is clearly not.

Look at it for yourself:

12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

 

RAdam...

Actually, the scriptures teach a mutual submission in marriage.

The wife submitting to her husband, and the husband in the same way submitting to his wife.

The husband only takes the lead when their is a "stalemate" and neither marriage partner will go along with the others view.

At the point where a decision MUST be made, the husband makes the decision.

 

Women served as deaconesses in 1 Tim 3:8-13..Women of verse 11 is properly Greek diakonos (Rom 16:1). Phoebe was such a servant at the church at Cenchreae. I guess Paul was mistaken and forgot to erase these verses.

Oh, Paul also says the husband of one wife, and yet, he advocated remaining single in another scripture.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Pricilla and Aquilla were co workers together...both evangelizing and both teaching.

And I recall a while back someone on here giving the view that it could be proven that the woman was the primary teacher.

 

Where in the bible is the husband spoken of as submitting to his wife?

I read where Paul said the wife is to submit to the husband in the same way the church submits to Christ. The husband is supposed to love his wife in the same way that Christ loves His church. Does Christ submit to the church? Where does this equal submission come from? Give me some scripture.

You still haven't handled the problems with the "cultural problem" idea.

 

Phoebe was not a deaconess, there is no such thing. Phoebe was a servant of the church that helped Paul.

Paul gave the qualification of the husband of one wife as a limitation to the office. It doesn't require marriage, it required that if the man is married the marriage must be scriptural. He cannot be married to multiple women. He cannot have dishonorable marriages in his past with divorces and such as that. The elder and deacon are held to a high standard because they are the two church offices.

Paul advocated remaining single if the person was able to control himself/herself. Paul wasn't against marriage.

 

What do you mean by speak?

 

It is more like men giving up their "authority" rather than women usurping authority.