The powers that be are ordained of God

Discussion in 'Politics' started by steaver, Apr 15, 2009.

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Does Roman 13:1 (powers that be) apply to the USA?

  1. yes

    12 vote(s)
    80.0%
  2. no

    3 vote(s)
    20.0%
  1. steaver

    steaver
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    Rom 13:1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    Does this scripture apply to the USA?

    Why or why not?

    Does this scripture apply to the one world government scripture declares will be controled one day bt the Antichrist?

    Why or why not?
     
  2. LadyEagle

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    Does this Scripture apply to Nazi Germany? Why or why not?

    How about Cambodia's Pol Pot? Why or why not?

    Or the Ottoman Empire's extermination of Armenians? Why or why not?

    etc.
     
  3. donnA

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    Good questions LE, waiting for answers for the op.
     
  4. steaver

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    Good questions to add. Waiting for answers.....

    :jesus:
     
  5. carpro

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    Joseph Stalin murdered millions. God told him to. :rolleyes:
     
  6. annsni

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    Honestly, I don't read any exceptions in this at all so I'd have to say "yes"
     
  7. canadyjd

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    Rom 13 is a warning to Christians not to rebel against the Roman government, probably over taxes...maybe over taxes that supported pagan temples.

    The general command, however, to be in subjection to the government applies as long as the government doesn't demand a Christian do something/or support something that violates scripture and/or our conscience (based on scripture).

    I don't believe a Christian is ever commanded to take up arms against a government. I believe that violates the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    As far the U.S., we are in a unigue situation where our active, non-violent, involvement in politics can change public policy on important issues like abortion, same se* marriage and the death penalty.

    So in the case of the U.S., being "subject" to the government doesn't necessarily mean just sitting back and allowing ungodly people to support ungodliness.

    We are still being in "subject" to the government when we obey existing laws as we attempt to change public policy for the better.

    So....not supporting Obama and the liberals would not violate Rom. 13, since Christians are working within the laws of the government.
    Same answer as above. You obey as long as possible, being as wise as a serpent and as innocent as a dove.

    When they come to put the mark on your forehead or your hand and tell you to worship the anti-christ, then it is time to disobey, though non-violently.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  8. steaver

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    And how does this in your mind answer the OP? Did you vote "yes" or "no"? And why?

    :jesus:
     
  9. steaver

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    I tend to agree.

    So how do we apply this to 'powers that be' that are evil who set out to exterminate innocent people? Like Hitler did? Did God raise Hitler into power? Or did Hitler's evil rise up out of a government that once protected people from evil? Evil taking over good?

    Should the "powers that be" be interpreted to mean those powers that support God's laws of morality?

    Rom 13:4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    This cannot be said of Hitler and men such as him, correct? Hitler was no minister of God.

    Paul goes on to include God's commandments which are meant for our good....

    Rom 13:9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    :jesus:
     
  10. poncho

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    In the USA we do not elect masters or Ceasars we elect servants to take care of our business for us...public servants. By trying to apply Roman's 13 to our republican form of government you are in effect claiming the master should obey the servant. How does that make any sense? I voted no obviously. :)

    What if the laws themselves were corrupt and were only meant to reward or benefit a certain group? Better yet. What if the law wasn't really the law at all but was being passed off as law and enforced under the color of such a law? Should we still work within those "laws" which aren't legally laws at all? As so many are today.

    See Marbury vs Madison "All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void."
     
    #10 poncho, Apr 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  11. Palatka51

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    Roman taxes were taken during a time of Caesar worship. Christians did wonder and were worried about, tribute to Rome as the taxes were going to a man setting as a god.

    While it is true that our Congress, Courts and Executive branches tend to work around it, the Constitution is the ordained, written law of this nation. And the signed power of it is.....

    "We the People".

    Now with that, if you believe my statement to be true, we would be in rebellion unto God if we did not do everything in our power to uphold that law. Sense our present leaders blatantly disregard the ordained document of national law, it is up to us to get rid of them. Or forever abdicate your freedoms that are established by the blessings of God Almighty.
     
    #11 Palatka51, Apr 16, 2009
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  12. poncho

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    AMEN! :thumbs:

    Finally someone who "gets it". :applause:
     
    #12 poncho, Apr 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  13. JustChristian

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    In what sense is the constitution "ordained?" I believe it was a great document as was the Declaration of Independence but times change and sometimes the law needs to change as society changes. The Bible says that we are to recognize our earthly leaders but says nothing about "ordained documents." Instead the Bible commands us to obey our leaders which is what you seem to say we should not do.

    Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
    Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
    Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
    Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
     
  14. poncho

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    In other words...how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    The best way to bring understanding on Romans 13 is to ask, "Who was Apostle Paul writing to at Rome?" The answer is found at Romans 1:7. Paul was writing to all in Rome who are beloved of God and called to be saints. He was not writing to the general population at Rome. He was specifically addressing the "called-out ones," the body of Christ.

    If Apostle Paul was advocating obedience to the "law of the land," then Caesar would have no cause against him. Why would Caesar have Paul killed if Paul was promoting "obedience" to civil authorities?


    The world loves its own. If Paul belonged to Caesar, Caesar would not want to kill his own. If Paul was promoting, "Be subject to Caesar," why behead him? You don't destroy the very instrument that advertises for you. It does not make sense.

    The Truth is that Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government known as the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven. Already this new government was turning the world upside down. Caesar had Paul killed to help stop this threat to Rome's power.


    The harlot churches like to promote Romans 13 as meaning, "Obey Caesar," or "Obey the law of the land." How else can they interpret it? They have yoked themselves with Caesar through State incorporation. Their very life comes from the State. If they do not obey Caesar, Caesar will withdraw their corporate charter, and they will die. State incorporated churches have only one choice if they are to survive - promote obedience to the State.


    If Romans 13 does not mean, "Obey the State," what does it mean? Romans 13 means, "Obey those that have the rule over you" (Hebrews 13:17). Since Paul was addressing the saints at Rome, it is logical that he would instruct them to submit to those who look after their souls. It is a reminder to be obedient to the authorities God has placed over His people. For they are truly the ministers of God to thee for good. Unlike worldly rulers, godly rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Therefore, do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same.


    Paul Revere, Pastor


    SOURCE
     
    #14 poncho, Apr 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  15. steaver

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    This is interesting...

    You don't see Obama as a power, nor the USA Congress.

    Ok.....:praying:

    And thus we have lefties and righties with differing OPINIONS. I believe any moral law of God is black and white. Any other civic laws are "majority rules" and change many times with the wind.

    :jesus:
     
  16. Palatka51

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    In all of human history God had established Nation after nation after the exploits of men who were very likely valiant in battle. In our history that man was George Washington.

    When the Revolution was done, there was a move to make Washington a king. He would not acquiesce and returned to Mt Vernon. When they finally hatched out the Constitution He was called on to be our first President. Serving only two terms (there were no Presidential term limits then) he left the office and again returned to Mt Vernon.

    This time, God established a nation founded on the rule of law not on the antics of fleshly men.
     
  17. poncho

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    I see Obama for what he is a sock puppet of more powerful "global" masters. A pretender. A trojan horse. A deceiver and a destraction.

    I see congress for what it is a despicable group of men who are either too fearful of these "global masters" or too compromised to uphold their oath of office.

    What's really interesting is that you don't see these things seeing as how the "signs" are all around him and the congress. You do claim rather adamantly that you can "read" the signs of the times. Yet you miss the most obvious ones...how is that Steaver? Too many hours listening to "incorporated" preachers and watching the conditioning box?
     
    #17 poncho, Apr 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
  18. Martin Luther

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    Apparently it didn't apply to the British in 1776 either.
     
  19. steaver

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    Poncho? Come on, you are not that ignorant. This exegesis is trash, plain and simple. I would not want my brothers and sisters on this board thinking I was so outa touch with studying God's word and rightly dividing the word of truth. I would make a post as soon as possible retracting this exegesis as an answer to the OP.

    If Romans 13 is speaking of Pastors, then where are their swords to punish the evil doers with death? Vengence belongeth to God. The exegesis cannot be supported by Hebrews 13:17. These are two absolute different topics. I understand some passages are debteable, but Romans 13 is absolutely speaking of governments, not Pastors. That isn't even a honest mistake, this exegesis is going out of one's way to twist and distort God's word for a personal agenda. What a disgrace to God's precious word. :praying:

    Oh I see what you see brother, maybe not expressed in the way you express it, but "we the people" are pressing towards a one world government whether "we" believe it or not. You see how this world is going, so you are discerning the signs of the times just like me. The difference between you and I is that I know it cannot be slowed, hastened or stopped because I know scripture and you believe it can.

    :jesus:
     
  20. JustChristian

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    Self-serving misinterpretation of the Bible.
     

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