The powers that be are ordained of God

Either it applies to every situation or no situations.

This "electing public servants" garbage demonstrates degeneracy of the US. Say our founding fathers were really Christians. Then they would have know that every one of us were sinners and liars "because the Bible told me so." What sort of government might a population who knew they were all sinners devise for themselves?

Well, what sort of people do Baptists chose for their leaders? (You do have elected leaders, yes?) Do you elect "good old boys" who are just like you or do you elect people who, at least on the surface, might be a little smarter, better educated, and/or more moral than you are . . . better Christians, more spiritual . . . maybe even more honest?

For the first two hundred years were elected people who we thought were, for the lack of a better word, better than we were . . . more qualified morally and mentally to lead us. Last 25 or so years we have been electing good old boys so we can laugh at them. We think it is amusing when the president's brother is a drunk and has a beer named after him. We think it is amusing when the president is a reformed drunk. Why . . . he's no better than I am . . . yuk, yuk, yuk.

 

No, in the same words is the constitution ordained of God? Answer the question.

 

So this scripture applies to every other nation both existing and past but not the US? No. Scripture applies to America too.

 

Power vs authority? Hmmmm... I'm currently reading a book by Watchman Nee Spiritual Authority. It is a book derived from the notes of those who were discipled and taught into the ministry through the teachings of Nee. Therefore it cannot stand as a verbatum account: It may also be one reason why it may seem, to the reader, to be a repetitive in its presentation.... and, perhaps, the interpretation of the listener-note taker is contained in the content....particularly where one might question the meaning or exactness and truth of some clauses and presentations. However, I'm finding it to be an interesting study.

Watchman Nee seems to see a division of difference between power and authority: Authority is all God's....... and any to whom He delegates authority in the order of his creation, enter into this charge only by first recognizing God's authority and first presenting themselves in submission and obediance to Him and Him alone. While this submission to God's authority may at first appear to the skippy reader/thinker as lacking recognition of other authorities.... in actuality it is part of God's order that the Christian also recognizes authority which God has placed over us in our obediance to God: Thus a wife is submissive to her husband's authority, the children to the parents, the citizen to the law, students to teachers, and people to their leaders, the sheep to the shepherds.

Not having read the entire book yet, I'm not able to pass upon it a yea or nay. But I theorize that there is spiritual authority and carnal authority: The one we are called to submit is always under God's spiritual authority. God is spirit and we who worship him do so in spirit and in truth. All governments and leaders are under God's authority in their rule...... whether or not they recognize it. To the extent that they recognize and honor God's authority and righteousness in their rule, we bear obligation and obediance to God to follow their leadership...... but where they vere from God's authority into the logical systems of man (which are not faith based), or into the Babylonian system of morality, prosperity, profit, justice, power and control...... we follow God first and always, obediant to Him and any appearance of obediance we show to governmental authority is first and always built upon our own recognition of God's authority and obediance to God and our discernment of no contradiction by recognition of the lessor authority and submission to it.

Regarding Romans 13..... it is expressedlly addressed to 'every soul': Every soul is an individual accounting and choice. This is not a corporate choice...that is to say..... as a congregation or a community this teaching may be presented but the observance of it is an individual choice and accounting and not a corporate choice, even if all come to this agreement. It is an individual response and responsibility: Likewise any judgement occurring in the systems established by man.... be it through the courts or through the government, or any other man-made institution, is correctly placed upon the individual for an accounting and not correctly pertaining to a group of people: However, we know that man's systems often fail in acknowledgeing Devine authority in such matters, and the systems established by man often follow the designs of man and not the justice or righteousness of God: Therefore we might expect there to occur injustices, and persecutions, and corporate indictments and tribulations when these systems turn to evil.

Obediance to the anti-christ? No. This is not the meaning of Romans 13. We obey God. He is our authority and He is the power in our lives our witness and in the judgement of this world's systems. When law is just and good, we follow the law of the land: When that law is unjust, or based upon false science or false logic.... to the extent we are given opportunity to participate in the functions of government..... be it through our own political position, or as a juror on a jury or a enforcer of law or a witness to the accusation of another, or a vote cast, .......we are accountable to God for how we recognized his authority and power in and through our own actions.

Joseph served in the pagon government and rule of the Egyptians. He suffered persecution and false accusations at the start.... he passed the trials of faith which the Lord allowed.....and I think there's not a negative mention of him anywhere in the scripture. Daniel was also brought through many trials of faith under the pagon Babylonian system, yet nowhere in the scripture is there a negative remark concerning how he carried himself under the authority of God. In reading these passages we can see examples of how they submitted themselves to the powers of government.... and also where and how they acknowledged and gave difference in respect to the civil authority vs spiritual authority: they kept the perspective of order set up by God and when called to account, acknowledge the authority of God over that of man.

Jesus said that many antichrist would come before the end. There is already many antichrist among us. Some are apostate leaders that seem to be in the church... but are not of the body of Christ or his kingdom but are self-deceived and self willed, not submitting to the authority of Jesus Christ in their lives or calling. But, in the end time..... the antichrist which will be raised up to lead the worship of the world into obediance of a globalist government...... will do so in the absence of the Church. Those which remain, which will believe in Jesus Christ during the tribulation, will do so at the peril of their own lives...... being convicted and believing in Jesus based upon the testimony and teachings left behind and study of the scriptures..... and will be obediant to God and not the evil government under which they will live and be persecuted. We may suppose that we have challenges by our government..... but nothing is present as it will be in that day.

In the meantime, to the extent we have the insight to see and hinder the evil which will come upon all nations, we have an obligation to resist where we can.... and to give warning. We can rejoice as we see the end approaching knowing that our destiny is with Christ who is fitting us for his kingdom: But we do not rejoice for the evil which rises around us, nor for the judgement which falls upon those left behind, nor do we suppose that God needs our help or has ordained us to bring about any provision of prophecy: God will take care of all of that. Our mission is to carry the gospel and present it to as many as will hear, that they may take opportunity and not neglect so great a salvation. As far as our citizenship is concerned, we are citizens of the Kingdom of God..... but in our earthly citizenship and walk, we follow the authority of God in our daily walk and exercise of our earthly duties.... whether it be to employers, mates, the law, or the leadership..... and to the extent that we have influence upon our laws and our leadership, we exercise our individual responsibilities to uphold the righteousness of God's laws wherever and whenever it is expressed.

Regarding other's comments..... I'm with Palaka, Canadydj, and Poncho: We have a Constitutional Government .......of, by and for the people. As such, we have no committment to persons in authority as we have to the law by which we have given them authority. As our freedoms come from God and not government, it is only in proportion that we acknowledge God's authority in our lives that our government represents his authority in its leadership. To the extent that we fail to submit to God's authority in our own lives and expression, we allow carnality to creep in and upsurp the power which God has given us in our representative government. Yes...... if one will carefully study the history and the Declaration of Independance.... they will see where the government of Britan was not lawful nor just in its leadership of the colonies: It was becoming tryannical, uncompromising, without representation, changable in its laws...their interpretations and executitions, and decidedly prejudicial against those it counted as subjects based upon their residence and location, treating the colonist as different citizens from its own lawful citizens within its own isles. It was against this injustice and perception of subjecting citizens to the control and bearing of slaves that the colonist rebelled: They rebelled against that which was promised or contracted, became broken by the delivery of rule upon them through a progression of broken justice and law.

For any who charge that the colonist were wrong..... what about Britian? Wasn't there a time where it .....like the whole of Europe, was a collective of feudal lords, nobilities and kings...... and it was through revolutions that parlimentary government was eventually introduced?

 

Careful, there will be those here who call Watchman Nee a heretic and attempt to derail this thread. I do not personally hold to that view.

Your post is excellent.

 

You seem to have just brought that up. Are you attempting to derail this thread?

 

poncho

Your post is food for thought!:thumbs: And so is yours windcatcher!