The Pre-95 NASB Used TR

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Feb 27, 2009.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    Philip Comfort's book :Essential Guide To Bible Versions has been a very interesting read.(By the way,don't confuse him with Ray Comfort --The Way Of The Master).This book was published in the year 2000 by Tyndale House.

    There was something fasinating to me on page 172.

    "On the whole,the New American Standard Bible became respected as a good study Bible that accurately reflects the wording of the original languages.Yet it is not a good translation for Bible reading.Furthermore,it must be said that this translation is now nearly thirty years behind in terms of textual fidelity -- especially the New Testament,which,though it was originally supposed to follow the twenty-third edition of the Nestle text,tends to reflect the Textus Receptus... The NASB translators did not fully reflect the manuscript evidence of some very important discoveries in the decades prior to their work.The Dead Sea Scrolls were hardly influential in their work. And it seemed that they didn't take much notice of the Chester Beatty and Bodmer papyri for the New Testament."
     
  2. Rippon

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    I won't take the time to give Comfort's full explanation of each text -- just the gist.

    Matthew 6:13

    "but rescue us from evil" -- RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    "but rescue us from evil,because yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever." -- KJV,NKJV,NASB

    (pages 240,241)
    _______________________________________________________

    Matthew 17:21

    exclude verse 21 -- RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    "This kind does not come out except by prayer and fasting." --KJV,NKJV,NASB

    (page 245)
    ___________________________________________________________

    Matthew 23:14

    exclude verse 14 --RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    include verse 14
    "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees,hypocrites,because you devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayers;therefore,you will receive the greater judgment."

    KJV,NKJV,NASB

    Comfort :"This kind of gospel harmonization became prevalent after the fourth century."

    (page 248)
    _________________________________________________________

    Mark 9:43-48

    How Many Times Did Mark write,"Where the Worm Does Not Die and the Fire Is Never Extinguished"?
    Several manuscripts have this statement appearing only once,in Mark 9:48:RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    Other manuscripts have it two or more times,as extra verses,44 and 46 (which are identical to 9:48):add statement in mark 9:44 & 46 :TR,KJV,NKJV,NASB

    ...Indeed,many textual variants entered the textual stream as the result of scribes "enhancing" the text for oral reading in the church.
    (p.250)
    ______________________________________________________

    Mark 11:26

    exclude verse 26 :RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    include verse 26 :"But if you do not forgive,neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses." :KJV,NKJV,NASB

    Comfort says that "the addition of verse 26 is a natural scribal expansion of verse 25,borrowed from matthew 6:15,a parallel verse."

    (p.251)
    _______________________________________________________

    Mark 15:28

    exclude verse 28 :RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    include verse 28:And the Scripture was fulfilled that says,"He was counted among the lawless.":KJV,NKJV,NASB

    Comfort relates:"The documentary evidence decisively shows that this verse was not present in any Greek manuscript prior to the late sixth century."

    (pages 251,252)

    More later
     
  3. gb93433

    gb93433
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    My NAS copyright 1973 on page vii reads, "Greek Text: In Revising the ASV, consideration was given to the latest available manuscripts with a view to determining the best Greek text. In most cases the 23rd edition of the Nestle Greek New Testament was followed."
     
  4. Rippon

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    Luke 9:54-56

    shorter text : James and John said, "Lord,do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and destroy them?" And having turned around,he rebuked them. :RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    longer text : Lord,do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and destroy them,as Elijah also did?" And he said,"You do not know of what spirit you are,for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." : KJV,NKJV,NASB

    Comfort states :"If the words had originally been in the text,there is no good reason why they would have been deleted in the earliest manuscripts."

    (p.256)
    __________________________________________________________

    Luke 17:36

    exclude verse 36 :ASV,RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    include verse 36
    Two men will be in the field;one will be taken and the other left.
    :KJV,NKJV,NASB

    Comfort says that the verse is a scribal interpolation and is not present in the TR.

    (pages 257,258)
    ___________________________________________________________

    Luke 23:17

    exclude verse 17 :RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    include verse 17
    It was necessary for him to release one [prisoner] for them. :KJV,NKJV,NASB

    Comfort says that it's "most likely the result of scribal interpolation...The verse was added to provide a reason for the crowd's request that Pilate release Barabbas instead of Jesus (Luke 23:18)."

    (pages 259,260)
    ___________________________________________________________

    Acts 8:37

    exclude verse 37 : RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    include verse 37
    And Philip said,"If you believe with all your heart, you may."And he replied, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

    Comfort :"If the verse was an original part of Luke's text,there is no good reason for explaining why it would have been omitted in so many early manuscripts. Rather,this verse is a classic example of scribal gap-filling...The interpolation puts an answer on Philip's lips that is derived from ancient Christian baptismal practices.
    There is nothing doctrinally wrong with this interpolation...but Luke didn't write it."

    ( p.264)
    _________________________________________________________

    Acts 15:34

    exclude verse 34 : ASV,RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    include verse 34

    It seemed good to Silas to remain there. : KJV,NKJV,NASB

    (p.265)


    More later.
     
  5. Rippon

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    Well,if that was their general practice,so be it.But I am pointing out exceptions to the rule through Dr.Comfort's book.
     
  6. Deacon

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    The charge: “The NASB translators did not fully reflect the manuscript evidence of some very important discoveries in the decades prior to their work.”

    I only looked up two of the verses you offered.
    In both instances a note was provided indicating an alternative reading.

    The NASB and NASB95 handled it differently but provided information very similar to the more recent ESV (and some of the other versions you noted as well).

    26 [*“But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions. ”]
    Mark 11:26 NASB95
    Note: * Early mss do not contain this v


    26 (See marginal note. 1)
    Mark 11:26 NASB
    Note: Later mss. add vs. 26: “But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.”

    Compare the ESV which adds a footnote to verse 25
    "Some manuscripts add verse 26: But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your trespasses"


    43 “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
    44 [*where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
    45 “If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [**where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
    47 “If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
    48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
    Mark 9:43-48 NASB95

    Note: * ”Vv 44 and 46, which are identical to v 48, are not found in the early mss”
    Note: ** “V 44, note 1”



    43 “And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.
    44 (See marginal note 2, vs. 43.)
    45 “If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 (See marginal note 2, vs. 43.)
    47 “If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
    48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
    Mark 9:43-48 NASB

    Note: *“Verses 44 and 46, which are identical with verse 48, are omitted by the best ancient mss.

    Rob
     
  7. Rippon

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    Acts 24:6b-8a

    6He even tried to profane the temple,and so we seized him.8By examining him yourself you will be able to learn from him concerning everything of which we accuse him. : ASV,RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    6He even tried to profane the temple,and so we seized him. And we would have judged him according to our law. 7But the chief captain Lysias came and with great violence took him out of our hands., 8commanding his accusers to come before you. By examining him yourself you will be able to learn from him concerning everything which we accuse him. : KJV,NKJV,NASB

    Comfort :The longer reading is a late addition by some scribes who did not think it likely that Felix would have received the whole story from Paul. The text,without the interpretation,is bare but understandable : Paul was arrested so that he could be examined and tried by Felix.

    (p.265,266)
    ___________________________________________________________

    Acts 28:29

    exclude verse 29 : ASV,RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    include verse 29
    And after he said these things,the Jews went away,arguing greatly among themselves. : KJV,NKJV,NASB

    Comfort: The additional verse passed from the Western text into the Byzantine text. It was added to fill in the narrative gap between 28:28 and 28:30.Most modern versions do not include it in the text.

    (266,267)
    ___________________________________________________________

    Romans 16:24

    exclude verse 24 : RSV,NRSV,NIV,NEB,NLT

    include verse 24
    The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.Amen. : KJV,NKJV,NASB

    Comfort : The exclusion of this verse is strongly supported by all the earliest manuscripts... Other modern translations,following superior testimony,do not include the verse.
     
  8. Deacon

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    6 “And he even tried to desecrate the temple; and then we arrested him. [*We wanted to judge him according to our own Law.
    7 “But Lysias the commander came along, and with much violence took him out of our hands,
    8 ordering his accusers to come before you.] By examining him yourself concerning all these matters you will be able to ascertain the things of which we accuse him.”
    Acts 24:6-8 NASB95

    NASB95 note: * The early mss do not contain the remainder of v 6, v 7, nor the first part of v 8


    6 “And he even tried to desecrate the temple; and then we arrested him. (2)
    7 (See marginal note 2, vs. 6)
    8 And by examining him yourself concerning all these matters, you will be able to ascertain the things of which we accuse him.”
    Acts 24:6-8 NASB

    NASB note: [Some later mss. add, [And we wanted to judge him according to our own Law. 7 But Lysias the commander came along, and with much violence took him out of our hands, 8 ordering his accusers to come before you.]

    You have to recognize the NASB’s place in the history of Bible translations.
    It was developed in response to the perceived liberal Revised Standard Version which was rejected by many conservative Christians.
    The NASB's translators recognized that many of the textual decisions in the RSV were correct.
    One of their responses was to provide footnotes indicating where many of these decisions were made.
    The footnotes allow the readers to begin to assess the evidence for themselves.
    Later English translations have followed suit.
    While the New English Translation (NET) is not an exceptional translation, it is outstanding in its documentation.

    One thing I have to agree with Comfort about is the NASB’s minimal use of the Dead Sea Scrolls and other OT sources.
    Again, this may again due to its place in conservative Christian history.
    The idea of Masoretic Text – Only has strong conservative backing.

    It’s in its use of these other resources that the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) stands out.

    *****************************

    Now when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with a three-year-old bull*and one ephah of flour and a jug of wine, and brought him to the house of the LORD in Shiloh, although the child was young.
    1 Samuel 1:24 NASB95

    NASB95 note: *1 Saml 1:24 LXX (cf. also Gen. 15:9) as well as in the Dead Sea Scroll 4Q (see Tov 1980:54), and also the Syriac

    Compare:

    And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of the LORD in Shiloh: and the child was young.
    1 Samuel 1:24 AV 1873

    *****************************

    while I was standing between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain. He said,
    Deuteronomy 5:5 NASB95

    Masoretic Text (MT) reads “word”; 4QDeut(n) uses the plural, “words”.
    The plural is supported in the Samaritan Pentateuch.

    (At that time I was standing between the LORD and you to declare to you the words of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:
    Deuteronomy 5:5 NRSV

    ******************************

    “Rejoice, O nations, with His people;
    For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
    And will render vengeance on His adversaries,
    And will atone for His land and His people.”

    Deuteronomy 32:43 NASB95


    Praise, O heavens, his people,
    worship him, all you gods!
    For he will avenge the blood of his children,
    and take vengeance on his adversaries;
    he will repay those who hate him,
    and cleanse the land for his people.

    Deuteronomy 32:43 NRSV

    In 4QDeut(q) the word, “heavens” is substituted for “nations”, “children” for “servants” and it adds “worship him, all you gods”

    *Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint) people, / and let all the angels worship him /

    *****************************

    Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    And Your dominion endures throughout all generations.

    Psalm 145:13 NASB95

    Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    and your dominion endures throughout all generations.
    The LORD is faithful in all his words,
    and gracious in all his deeds.

    Psalm 145:13 NRSV

    11QPs(a), the LXX and other ancient versions include this plus.

    Rob
     
    #8 Deacon, Feb 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2009
  9. Rippon

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    I think this thread is a good one when addressing the claims of the Majority Text folks.
     
  10. Rippon

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    You're right again Rip.
     
  11. Robert Snow

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    You sound like Rush Limbaugh congratuating himself! :laugh:
     
  12. Rippon

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    Mega-dittoes!
     
  13. Robert Snow

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    :laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  14. Rippon

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    I came up on this old thread. It deals with scribal tendencies in non-Alexandrian texts such as harmonization, interpolation, and scribal gap-filling in general.

    Deacon's post are very helpful.
     
  15. Martin Marprelate

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    What does it address? It is just a series of bald assertions without evidence. None of the notes quoted address the fact that the Majority Text readings are in between 90% and 99% of the extant manuscripts.

    If you want a good note, why not try the NKJV on John 7:53?

    'NU brackets 7:53 through 8:11 as not in the original text. They are present in over 900 mss of John.
     
  16. Rippon

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    Philip Comfort knows his business as a textual critic. My examples do demonstrate that there are harmonizations --enhancements scribal expansions going on --in the Byzantine tradition.

    Ragarding Mark 15:28 --does it move you at all that it is not present in any Greek manuscript before the late 6th century?
    I see you are still into nose counting. I am into quality, while you are solely into quantity.
    Well, if those verses are not present in the original text it would not matter if there were 9,000 manuscripts produced at a late date.

    You prefer a multitude of copies, mostly made after the 10th century. I generally prefer the fewer ones made much closer to the time of the autographa. You like the newer. I like the older.

    How late do you you want to go anyway? There are some Greek texts made in the 16th century. Do you want to try and convince me that they have greater import than those made in the 4th century, for instance?
     
  17. franklinmonroe

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    I am not impressed with this as an example of a "good" note, if this is indeed the entire note. It may deliver an accurate fact ("present in over 900 mss") but it does so without any context.

    First, what kind of manuscripts are these 900? Are they Greek, Latin, Coptic, something else, or some combination of many? Second, is 900 a comparatively large or small amount of manuscripts? If there are nearly 6,000 Greek manuscripts alone then 900 does not sound proportionally like very many. (Of course, many of us here know that not all 6,000 MSS contain the complete Gospel of John). I just think this NKJV note assumes too much knowledge by a reader.

    Now if you will excuse me, I must get back to my copying the Greek by hand of the book of John so that I can continue to increase the total number of manuscripts that do not contain these verses.
     
    #17 franklinmonroe, Sep 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2015
  18. Van

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    This is a typical misrepresentation from Mr. Rippon. Anyone who pays any attention to how he characterizes the positions of others is naive.

    The NASB does include the questionable "For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen" but in brackets [] with a footnote saying the earliest manuscripts do not include this clause.

    Note that the supposed "quote" contains no brackets or footnote. Go figure
     
    #18 Van, Sep 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2015
  19. TCassidy

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    I seldom agree with Van but he is correct. The honest quote reads:

    Matthew 6:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from [a]evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]

    Footnotes:

    a. Matthew 6:13 Or the evil one
    b. Matthew 6:13 This clause not found in early mss
     
  20. agedman

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    Which is one reason I moved to the NASB from the KJV and the NIV.

    The NASB is very honest and does usually mark areas of disagreement.

    Another area is the last chapter of Mark 16.

    Knowing that Mark actually stopped writing at the end of verse 8 is clearly marked in the NASB.

    Where the NIV may add a bitty footnote at the end. Seemed a bit deceitful when one has to go back and remember that the last 12 verses were not part of what Mark wrote.

    Such is the weakness of reliance upon the work of others who mislead - intentionally or not.
     

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