The Problem with Arminian Free Willism

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 2, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    We all agree that no external force coerces the will of man. People have died rather than forced to choose something contrary to their convictions or feelings.

    However, their concept of "FREE" will is a will that is FREE from any internal forces or coersion within the human nature. They believe the human will sits upon a throne as a soverign "god" within the human nature and abritrarily has ability to choose that which is contrary to both the inclinations of human rationale and feelings combined.

    It is certainly true that the human will can choose contrary to the inclinations of one or the other (rationale versus emotions) but not contrary to both.

    Here is their fundemental problem. The will is not free from internal coersion by either rationale or emotions. Indeed, the human will is nothng more or less than an absolute servant for expressing man's intellect and feelings. It may be expressed by one over the other but it cannot express anything contrary to both, because it has no existence, much less freedom from both. Indeed, the only two Greek words translated "will" in the New Testament are (1) boulomai - determinate will; (2) Thelomai - emotional choice. No other option exist because no will exists apart from rational determination or emotional determination.

    The human will is not only the absolute slave of human rationale and emotions but it is wholly enslaved to a totally depraved human rationale and emotions.

    Their problem is that the Bible teaches that the unregnerated man's rationale and emotions are in complete servitude to sin, dominated by sin, enslaved by sin in so much they are spiritually "dead in tresspasses and sin." In so much that the whole inner mind set (emotional/volitional) is at war with God and is not subject to the will of God and neither indeed can be and that is precisely why the unregenerated man cannot "please God" (Rom. 8:7-8) and one must come to God by "faith" to please God (Heb. 11:6).

    Therefore, they do not merely believe in a "free" will but a "sovereign" will who has not only final decision over man's depraved nature but over the new nature in addition to the indwelling Person of the Holy Spirit. No such will exists in the universe.

    The new birth is a CREATIVE work that gives a NEW HEART (Ezek. 36:26) or a new intellectual emmotional disposition that is created in "righteousness and true holiness" and NEVER inclined to choose contrary to the Spirit of God. In the reborn person the will to do evil does not originate from this new inward man but from indwelling law of sin:

    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


    It would seem to me, that anyone believing that the human will is independent of a depraved mind and heart before and after regeneration should be able to easily see that what really needs to be saved from sin is the human will since it is ultimately that which would damn the whole human being.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    That is merely a straw-man story that Calvinists like to "tell themselves" so that they can ignore the Bible examples of Matt 18, Ezek 18, Gal 5:4, Romans 1, Hebrews 6, 1Cor 6 ... etc where it is demonstrated beyond all doubt that OSAS is dead.

    The Arminian position is that without God, without the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit - all mankind is in the position of Romans 3 "No one seeks after God - no not one". And the will is "enslaved" to sin and sinning.

    But God does not leave mankind there - rather God "DRAWS ALL unto HIM" John 12:32 for God "IS NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Pter 3.

    Now what is facinating about this Bible fact that Sovereignly chose to provide that supernatural element where in Eden He put supernatural "EMNITY between the see of the woman and the see of the serpent" Gen 3 - is that in John 6 Christ said that such supernatural "Drawing of ALL" is needed for anyone to Come to Him. Even Calvinists ADMIT that the supernatural drawing of God - "drawing ALL" as Christ said - is sufficient to ENABLE all the choice that depravity DISABLES!

    Buy their own doctrine - their view falls apart!

    How then can they continue with it??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    So you create your own definition and then set up a strawman to defeat.
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    Neither Mitchell or Ryan have addressed the problems I presented. They simply ignored the problems and made unsubstantiated assertions.

    According to their insinuations God does not need to give us a "new" heart at all as their insinuations demand it is perfectly able to cooperate. According to their insinuations God does not need to CREATE a "new" inward man as the old man is perfectly capable of cooperating with grace with just a little divine enablement.
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Jun 2, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2013
  5. Thomas Helwys

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    Biblicist, do you enjoy conversing with yourself and quoting yourself? Maybe you think that by doing this you can convince yourself of your own position.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    Well, right now, I am the only one talking that is consistent with the facts of Scripture. You and the others are great at making unsubstantiated assertions rather than dealing with the issues I presented. Nobody seems to want to direct address the issues I presented. Of course it is your complete right to ignore or ridicule those issues but that does not help advance the discussion at all.
     
  7. webdog

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    ...and now you beg the question by assuming there are actual problems to address. If one wants to see unsubstantiated assertions, read the OP.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    Why is it that you fella's simply make assertions but provide nothing to support them?

    Your response is not even near honesty as I point out many things in the OP that are quite factual and reasonable. For example, I agree that the will is not under external coersion. God does not force anyone to beleive in him.

    For example, I point out that the will is not independent and soverign over the intellect or emotional inclinations of man but contrariwise! Can you refute that? Can you refute that the will is not subject to internal coercion of the intellect or emotions?

    For example, can you demonstrate that the fallen unregenerate state of man does not include his rational and emotional nature? Can you deny that the "heart" of man is so bad that God must REPLACE it and God must CREATE heart and spirit? - Eph. 2:10a/Ezek. 36:26 Before a person is willing to obey God - Ezek. 36:27/Eph. 2:10b.

    There is much you simply want to ignore and must ignore to make your dogma of free survive. Your dogma is the assertion that the human will is so free that neither external or internal corercion is possible without destroying its freedom. In other words, your concept of free will is a SOVERIGN GOD that neither the God of heaven or the intellectual/emotional nature of man can change but it sovereignly reigns over all.

    Ridicule with substance is the calling card of Satan and his servants and the modus operandi of many who are misled by the Spirit of error. Your post contains no substance only ridicule
     
  9. webdog

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    Like you did, only supporting proof text passages out of context? Yawn...

    "Many things" are factual and reasonable? If you don't even have the confidence to post only that which is factual and reasonable, why chide anyone for not taking you seriously?

    What is there to refute? I agree the curse affected every part of man.

    Absolutely I can demonstrate the fallacy a new heart is given. First, your Ezekiel proof text means nothing of the sort pertaining to individuals, but is speaking of the nation of Israel. Second, being dead in sin does not equate to needing a new heart, but to be REgenerated. Failure on both of your proof texts.

    When have I ever made such ridiculous ass-ertations? This is the straw man mentioned in the above reply you so smugly brushed aside.

    Ripping Scripture from context is what Satan used on Jesus in the wilderness, and you here. Look in the mirror before hinting I am a servant of Satan, troll.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    obviously your not worth the effort to give a reply as it would be casting pearls before swine.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    The nation of Israel does not have a corporate "heart" (Ezek. 36:26). There is not another way they can be saved any different than you or I. There is no salvation for anyone OUTSIDE of Christ. This "new" heart is the heart whereupon the law of God is written (2 Cor. 3:3) as a CREATIVE act of God.

    The "new" heart is the creative work of God in Ephesians 2:10a. When a person is driven to deny that "new" birth is not the creation of another moral nature than one must deny multitudes of Scriptures. The "new" man is CREATED in "righteousnes and true holiness." No such creative work of a new moral nature is necessary according to free wilism as the old heart is perfectly suitable for rehabilitation.
     
  12. webdog

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    Which is you MO when put into your place. Your post is being reported for essentially calling me lost due to not buying into your eisegesis.

    Enjoy conversing with yourself :wavey:
     
    #12 webdog, Jun 3, 2013
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  13. Thomas Helwys

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    And now calling someone a swine, in addition to fool, heretic, and servant of Satan. You are the only hog I see on here.
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    "When have I ever made such ridiculous ass-ertations?" That is the language of a swine before whom the Lord commands us not to cast our pearls. Your words are similiar!

    I will not respond to either of you any longer and yes, you may rejoice because I am.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    Again, I invite Free willers to a reasonable and rational discussion of the issues I have set forth. I started out with your position and so I was not raised in the position I present above.
     
  16. DHK

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    I fear all the sheep are going to die here also, as one after another be branded or tarnished with one name or another.

    Gentlemen, please keep the conversation civil.
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Now, to get back on the subject once again. Ezekiel 36:26 is not a promise limited to Israel as God does not have one plan of salvation for a Jew and another for a Gentile. He does not have one Savior for a Jew and one for a Gentile. He does not have one gospel for a Jew and another for a Gentile. The Jewish man does not have one kind of human nature and the Gentile another kind of human nature. The problem of sin is not different in the Jew than in the Gentile.

    The new birth (quickening) is a creative act of God whereby man is imparted with another moral nature that is created in "righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). The heart of the jew is no different than the heart of the Gentile and if a Jew needs a new heart so does the gentile as the sinful nature is the same in ALL FALLEN human beings.

    Free willism is forced to defend the position that God temporarily frees the will from the inward coercion of the depraved nature as described in Romans 8:7, thus making it independent either of the human heart (mind/emotions) or temporarily suspending/changing the nature of the human heart into a neutal condition that is neither at "enmity" toward God or loves God but is strictly neutral and free from negative or positive internal input. They try to manufacture that condition under the terms of "conviction" which supposedly neutralizes the law of indwelling sin control over the human will.

    However, John 1:13 denies that the new birth is the product of the human will. Romans 9:16 denies that the human will plays any role causative role in obtaing the mercy of God in salvation. That means, the only role the human will plays in regeneration is consequential rather than causal (Jn. 1:12). The human will has a role to play but not as causation for new birth. God gives a believing heart or else there is no need to give any "new" heart at all.
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Jun 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2013
  18. Yeshua1

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    read Luther Bondage of the Will, as sinners can freely choice what to do, its just they are restricted in what they can choose to do!

    NONE seek after God, None can know in a saving sense God apart from the HS revealing and enabling the sinner to receive Jesus thru faith!
     
  19. Yeshua1

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    Sinners have enough "free will" to know thru general revealtion of nature God exists, NOT free will to know Him in a saving sense, as that requires the work of the HS to enable sinner to see and receive jesus as Lord!
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    Sinners have evil hearts and intents, that is their fallen natures!

    faith is not inherit in us, its gets deposited by the HS into those who are to be the saved of God!
     

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