The Promises to Abraham – the Promise of the Land

No wonder you do not possess the capability to discern the Word of God. You worship another god and therefore are led by "another spirit" and have believed in "another Jesus" and thus embraced "another gospel."

There is no sense in discussing anything more until we discuss who Jesus Christ really is because from my perspective you are an idolater.

 

Trevor only sees what is earthly and worldly. His religion is a doctrine of death. Many of the Jews missed their Messiah because they expected a King with an earthly reign.

 

Jesus is ruling now.

You do have a doctrine of death, for you proclaim that you die, but Jesus says 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

You reject the life Jesus speaks. You believe in what is earthy and passing, and you hope for a resurrection one day until you cannot hope anymore, and that is physical death, and according to you, it is a spiritual death too.

I debate the shortest amount of time with a Mormon, because there is one scripture that if they debate against, it shows that there is no reasoning with them.

As for Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Messianic Jews, and Christadelphians...I debate with them not much longer than that of the Mormons. If after reading the scriptures I gave in this thread about the life of the spirit Jesus gives to those who believe, and one still does not believe, then they are rejecting that life. Then what is the point of discussing?

 

John 1:1,14,18 all demand PRIOR existence of The Word to being "tabernacled" in a human form. Luke 1:35 expresses in simple terms how the Preexistent Word "became" (Jn. 1:14) flesh and dwelt among us. As you know both the father and mother contribute DNA in conception of a child. Mary contributed the HUMAN DNA but God the Father "gave" His Son, the preincarnate Word or provided the Divine DNA in this conception. "A child is born" but a "Son is GIVEN."

This is how the Preexistent Word "became" flesh and tabernacled among us.

Moriah is wrong! Solomon is not doubting or denying where the spirits of man versus beast go. Solomon is writing from the perspective of one who lives "under the sun" and not from one who has been in heaven or on the other side of death.

No human living "under the sun" knows by personal experience. However, take note that he distinguishes the "spirit" of man and beast from their bodies and declares the existence of the "spirit" beyond the physical death of the body and its return to dust (vv. 19-20).

Matthew 10:28 proves that the "soul" cannot be killed by men but continues to exist in spite of them killing the body. Jesus distinguishes between the body and the soul when he says "BOTH" will be rendered useless (apolummi) by God in Gehenna. In the mean time BETWEEN physical death and eternal judgement man did not kill the "soul" when he killed the body and so the "soul" continues to exist. The "soul" is spiritual in substance.

Second, both the good and evil spirits of men return to God who then disposes of them according to His revealed word. He sends the evil soul to hades and the good to be with him in heaven.

Where do you find that Luke 16 and the story of Lazerus and the rich man is ever called a "parable"? What parable do you ever find where any individual is ever named? Moses and the prophets are not parabolic in nature? Abraham is not parabolic in nature! The purpose of a parable is to provide a parallel illustration taken from a REALISTIC circumstance not a fictious one! Hence, a "sower" was REALISTIC in their culture! Hence, a "husbandman" was REALISTIC in their culture. Parables ALWAYS took things that were REALISTIC in their own experiences. Furthermore, parables were used to reinforce REAL and and AUTHENTIC truths. What REAL and AUTHENTIC truth would this story of two men AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH would convey if death simply ended it all? Answer - NOTHING!

Do you know what this expression meant to the Jews in Christ's day? Apparently not! John leaned upon the "bosom" of Christ when administering the Lord's Supper. John claimed that he was the one whom Christ "loved." Abraham was the role model and "father" of the Jewish nation and death was expressed for the pious Jew to go "be with their fathers" of which Abraham was regarded as the greatest and to be in the "bosom of Abraham" was the expression that conveyed death not in the terms of fear and hopelessness but in the terms of being received in love.

Your connecting one Lazerus to the other Lazerus is mere wishful thinking. The resurrection is not being taught in this story. What is being taught in this story is that only prior to physical death is there opportunity to determine your post-death destination and if the Word of God is the only witness that God provides men and there will be no one sent back from the other side to them. He is denying that even if one were to be resurrected from the dead it would help influence brothers to submit to God's Word. Both the resurrection of his friend Lazerus and Himself proves this conclusion.

No, he is teaching the very reverse. He is looking for the Lord's return and wants simply to be clothed upon immediately while alive with his new house/body that originates with Christ coming from heaven or what he speaks about concerning the living at the Lord's return (1 Cor. 15:51-55). He would prefer not to wait in heaven as a redeemed "naked" spirit without either his physical or new glorified body during the intermediate period between death and the second coming when Christ "BRINGS WITH HIM" the saints (1 Thes. 4:14) or those "spirits of just men" now in heaven (Heb. 12:23).

Absolute proof is his use of the two Aorist tense infinitives showing that there is no time gap but simeltaneous action "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord"

Hence "to be absent" from the body IS "to be present" with the Lord.

Finally, he describes the body as a home for something he calls "I" which can be either "present" or "absent" from that home. That in and of itself destroys your whole position.

 

No, you are wrong Biblicist. I only repeated what Solomon said...lol..

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Solomon was writing about earthy things. The New Testament tells us about spiritual things.

 

The very fact that he distinguishes the "spirit" of both man and beasts from their bodies (vv. 19-20)demonstrates he is not theologically ignorant of these things. He is only expresssing PRACTICAL EXPERIENTIAL ignorance as he is speaking as one who lives "under the sun" who has never EXPERIENCED death of the body or post-death experience. He is not denying it but denying his own EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE of it.

Theologically he knew it went back to God and the spirit of the beast went downward:

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So you are wrong about your interpretation of Ecclesiastes 3:21. However, I do not believe you are capable of admitting error even when it is glaring as Ecclesiastes 12:7 proves it to be. I would love to be proven wrong about you but I don't believe I shall.

 

I corrected you when you incorrectly quoted what Solomon said. I then quoted Solomon correctly.
You say a bunch of stuff as if you are debating an imaginary person. Stop making up things you say I say.

Solomon says, "Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Now speak as if you believe God is watching.

 

Yes, you proved me right! You are incapable of admitting to error even when it is obvious you are wrong.

Here is what you said also:

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. - Moriah


Any fool can see that you are not merely "correcting" but "DENYING" that Solomon theologically knew that the spirit of man went up and the spirit of the beast went down. In denying one aspect you are denying both as both are placed together by Solomon in this question. However, Ecclesiastes 12:7 proves you are wrong.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


He was merely questioning can anyone living "under the sun" know these things by experiential knowledge. Of course they cannot because they are still alive, never died, never experienced what happens after death.


Moriah, you are so proud you cannot admit you are in error when it is glaringly obvious. What good is it to even discuss with such a self-deceived man like you???? Ecclesiastes proves that one half of his statement in Ecclessiastes 3:21 is correct and therefore both are correct as both are placed together in the same question. Ecclessiastical 3:21 places this in a question of EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE whereas Ecclesiastes 12:7 states it as a matter of THEOLOGICAL knowledge.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So proud you are but so wrong you are because Ecclesiastes is not a denial that the spirts of beasts go downward or the spirit of man goes upward but only a denial that anyone living under the sun KNOWS IT EXPERIENTIALLY or can know it EXPERIENTIALLY.

 

That is not true what you say about me. I have even admitted on this board that I had been in false religions before. What a statement you try to make about me. Show me where you have admitted error.

You are adding to what I said. I did correct you by just stating exactly what Solomon said. You came to the conclusion yourself that it must mean Solomon is denying knowing that the spirit of man went up and the spirit of an animal went in the ground. Why did you naturally come to that conclusion?

How do you think what you say is an explanation to you denying that Solomon says who knows?

Careful…your spirit is showing, and it doesn’t look very pretty.

You quote a scripture about the PHYSICAL body going to dust, you quote another scripture speaking of the spirit, and you think this proves what you are saying, how?

You repeat it for why.

Show me a post from any thread where you said to someone else that they were right about their belief and you were proven wrong. If you do not show me that post by you, then eat your slanderous and hypocritical words you said to me here.

 

False again! Go back and read your own post! I quoted that statement word for word from you own post. I ADDED NOTHING! I will quote it again directly from your own post:

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. – Moriah


Solomon simply puts the truth in the form of a question. He does not deny either that the spirit of man goes upward or the spirit of the animal goes downward - HE DOES NOT DENY EITHER.

However, YOU interpreted his question as a denial that the spirit of beast went downward and here are your words again:

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. – Moriah

Solomon never denied this. He simply said "who knows." Ecclessiastes 12:7 demands that SOLOMON KNEW the spirit of man does in fact return to God and the spirit of the beast goes down.

Why then does Solomon put it in a question form in Ecclessiastes 3:21 and an affirmative statement in Ecclesiastes 12:7???

Very simple. In Ecclesiastes 3:21 HE IS NOT DENYING EITHER his only denying that men living under the sun can EXPERIENTIALLY KNOW either because those living "under the sun" have not yet died and therefore have no EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEGE of anything past death much less death itself.

In Ecclessiastes 12:7 he is asserting THEOLOGICAL KNOWLEDGE of what He knows to be true.

However, I can tell you will not be able to understand a word I said and you will further admit you are wrong when you asserted in your own words in the very post you responded to my post on Ecclessiastes 3:21

The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. – Moriah

Sorry, but the spirit of beast does go downward regardless if uninspired and unstudied Moriah admits to it or not or denies it as you do above in your own words.

Solomon states two truths in Ecclesiastes 3:21 but simply denies any living man can know these truths EXPERIENTIALLY as no living man has passed beyond to experientially verify it.

 

My previous answer stands. Please stop repeating yourself. Solomon does not say what you said he said. He said, "Who knows..."

 

Now you are outright lying! Before you get mad about calling you a liar, you better go back and read the repeated quotation I gave of what you also said. You DID NOT merely say "who knows" but you DENIED that when Solomon said "who knows...the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? " COULD BE TRUE but is absolutely false! Here is your flat denial again:

"The scripture DOES NOT say the spirit of animals go downward". – Moriah

No, Solomon only said "who knows" he did not say the spirit of the beast DOES NOT go downward but that is what Moriah said!

When Solomon confirmed the first half of Ecclessiastes 3:21 in Ecclessiastes 12:7 as true he thus confirmed the second half as equally true.

Again, he was only pointing out the obvious that no LIVING MAN under the sun experiential can know the truth of these statements as no LIVING MAN under the sun has died and gone beyond death to see. However, theologically he asserts not only that we can know this truth but asserts it as truth in Ecclessiastes 12:7.

The real significant fact here is that the true spirit behind you is being revealed (1 John 4:6) to be the "spirit of error" as the "spirit of error" does admit to error and you are in error.

 

Biblicist,

You are guilty of what you accuse me.

Here is exactly what you said and I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
Ec 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


Technically only the "body" is said to return to dust! The spirit of beasts go downward to dust but man's spirit does not. David speaks of flying away when he is "cut off" from the land of the living. Paul says that he will be present with the Lord when he leaves the body.

Moriah:
The scripture does NOT say the spirit of animals go downward. The scriptures says Who knows...
Solomon in Ecclesiastes is speaking through out Ecclesiastes about earthly things. The New Testament speaks to us about spiritual things.

Remember, many of the Jews missed the Messiah because they were expecting a King for an earthly reign. The New Testament has the revelation about what is spiritual.

 

Ok, I understand where you are coming from. I misunderstood your first phrase to be your own denial. So, you do not deny the spirit of beast goes downward - right?

Ecclesiates 12:7 proves that Solomon believed the Spirit of man did go upward or back to God. Hence, Ecclessiates 3:21 is simply asking it from the perspective of personal experiential knowledge and nothing more. No living man knows where the spirits go by personal experience is all that Ecclesiates 3:21 is saying but Solomon knew by revelation where they went as Ecclesiates 12:7 is not a question but an assertion.

 

In this thread, I do not say either way where animals go. I only wanted to point out that you are saying Solomon says definitely, where animals go, but that is not the case. The point is that Solomon is saying, “Who knows…” What we can take away for sure in what Solomon is saying, and that is that humans AND animals have spirits. Many people claim that animals do not have spirits. I just noticed you put into the scripture something that I do not believe is there. I only repeated what Solomon does say.
If you want to make a thread about what happens to animals when they die, then make a post about that. As for you saying that no animal is in heaven, but is only downward, then you must acknowledge that the Bible does speak of animals that are in heaven.
Revelation 6:1 watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.
5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “Two pounds[a] of wheat for a day’s wages, and six pounds[c] of barley for a day’s wages,[d] and do not damage the oil and the wine!”
7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

I do not believe that Solomon was asserting that the spirit of animals go downward. I believe Solomon was saying what he said, and that is, “Who knows…”

 

You cannot go to revelation to support doctrine. These are SYMBOLS not literal and the 24 elders and four beasts are not symbols of animals but of the redeemed - Rev. 5:8-10.

The Horses are symbols of God's judgmental powers creating havoc throughout the earth. No literal horse can do that.

It is useless to discuss this or any other issue with you.